[simch]

In the late 1980's I built a MK2 Fiesta with a 1.9 litre tall block CVH engine on twin downdraft webbers. It had the usual trick head and cam and properly set up, it made 108hp at the front wheels, 140hp at the flywheel at 5100 revs. It was a quick little car though, and always surprised me how quick when up against supposed 200+hp fiesta turbos and the like on trackdays. Car was featured in some mags and ended up at a fiesta shoot out at the Pod, where the little beast was third fastest UK fiesta with a 15.08 at 90mph. Only beaten by a rover v8 turbo drag fiesta and a Mk1 rolland haynes engined road legal drag prepped car. The 1.9 cvh was one of only three cars that drove there, and interstingly beat all the full race spec mk1,2 and 3 fiestas.

My mk4 puts out 241flywheel at Jabba, 216 front wheel hp at stealth.

Clutch is slipping at the mo, and I know the G techs may not be 100% accurate, but best 0-60 s far is 6.2, and I have only got under 15s once for the 1/4 mile with it! With clutch sorted and at the grippier POd, probably should be able to get consiustently under 15, term speed by g tech is almost identical each run at 98mph.

So despite double the front wheel HP, the MK4 is only marginally faster as far as I can tell. Can only be due to weight! Just goes to show how lardy cars, (and their drivers, I was probably 4 stone lighter then!!!!) have become in 15 years.

The dealer at the MK5 GTI launch told me the MK5 GTI is twice as heavy as the original mk1 gti! Is it progress.......? Well yup on refinement and comfort/safety, but the cars are not really a lot more economical due to the extra weight, despite all the engine development! Makes you wonder how much influence the oil companies may have on car design....!?!

So do you reckon we will have hot hatches the size of current Audi A6/8's in 15 years time??

I reckon the trusty old Fester would woop the MK4 round a track too, it was very harsh on the road but ace on track!

No real point to this, an interesting comparison only, and probly telling us all summat we already knew.[8D][8D]

 

[Blue V5]

i completely agree that weight is the biggest factor in the quest for speed these days.

but the thing is, unless you want to make the car 'strip only' we have to work around it due to the modern safety laws - both driver (and occupants ) and pedestrians.

i used to be heavily into aircooleds, its very easy to make a n/a 1.9 beetle hit 13's with it only slightly lightened.

why?

yes its rear engine/rearwheel drive so this has a great positive effect but also they are so light. and as they are not subject to modern safety laws they can be gutted as much as you like and still be road legal.

no airbags, heavy impact zones, huge plastic dash, heavy seats, reinforcements, cats etc.

i don't see how cars will get heavier, they are already very safe and with the advent of modern technology such as CF the metal could start to be replaced in certain areas.

i'm amazed at the weight difference of the mk5 v mk1 though!

but think of the engineering that has had to go into it to make a relatively lardy car work as well as the mk1 did.

nice thread btw []

 

[simch]

Cheers!

Of course on the safety issue, there is the "devils advocate" point that teh heavier a car is, the more inertia it carries, therefore the more damage it causes in an accident too, so if all the cars are twice as heavy as 15 years ago, we may not have gained as much as we think safety wise, as whatever hits you (or you hit) will have more energy to dissipate!

Maybe we should all go back to the 70's when seatbelts were optional, and people justified not wearing them becasue they wanted to be "thrown clear" in an accident! LOL (Seriously, I remember my dad and grandad using that line in genuine discussion when seatbelts were made copmpulsory in about 1978 or so!!

I really have a hankering t go buy a mint mk2 XR2, and shuv one of these hybrid turbo "zvh" motors in it, (zetec bottom end, cvh top), with a big turbo. There are guys with over 330hp in these! 1980's weight, with 2005 power!! It'd be quick, that's for sure!

(There is a guy on the net BTW with a fiesta that has been speed tested at Brunters at 178mph, a mk3/4 variant with zvh turbo! Say waht you like bout fords, but that it one seriously quick hatchback!)

 

[enigma1992]

As you put it, weight has a lot to do with it. Did you see Top Gear and the Atom?

http://www.freshevents.co.uk/eventpages/activitypages/aerialatoms.htm

That's one light car []

 

[Y0Gi]

Quote: posted by enigma1992 on 13/02/2005 12:28:51

As you put it, weight has a lot to do with it. Did you see Top Gear and the Atom?

http://www.freshevents.co.uk/eventpages/activitypages/aerialatoms.htm

That's one light car []

Did you see that on top gear? That is the mutts nutts!

 

[Uzi9]

I am definitely no expert, but from the (few) crash test comparisons that I have seen, weight has been a secondary issue when it came to safety. Crumple zones appear to have made a huge difference with newer cars able to absorb much more impact. TBH if I was in an older car, I would want to be hit by a newer car, regardless of weight, as I would feel that it would be able to absorb some of the impact energy better than a lighter car. Remember also that the kerb weight and weight whilst moving would be two completely different things. I'm a dentist and while I were learning a little about maxillofacial surgery etc, it became apparent that there are many more badly injured people in accidents requiring surgery (skull/facial damage etc). The reason for this was that many of these people would have been killed in the same RTAs (and obviously would not require surgery). I think a balance has to be reached, and car manufacturers have to be realistic about which engines they put into what chassis.

Coming back to the mk1 vs mk5 gti weight thing, a mk5 is a much heavier car for many reasons. It is a lot more spacious in every aspect for one thing and I think a straight comparison is unfair. I think another forum member made this point a while ago. It would be fairer to compare the Lupo GTi (or maybe Polo) with the old Mk1 Gti. At the end of the day, choosing a car is all about compromises. You need to prioritize what you need from a car and make those compromises accordingly. I am happy to have extra weight in a car when it allows me to carry all my passengers/luggage comfortably and safely. In my opinion people who are purely interested in speed and performance (and nothing else) are probably not suited to any golf (even the R32/GTI).

sorry for the long post (and its prob just jibberish anyway[])

 

[Blue V5]

uzi, i saw a test (on 5th gear i think) where an espace mk1 (k reg ish) was hit my a new espace.

my god, being in the old espace you wouldn't have stood a chance although everyone in the new espace would've walked away.

they slowed up the impact footage which showed the new espace carried on moving for a lot longer so dispersing a lot of its kinetic energy. the crumple zones worked much better and pretty much destroyed the old car.

what was scary was it was a o/s corner to o/s corner impact at 30 odd mph!! so 60mph combined speed.

 

[Uzi9]

Thats true. I remember seeing this 5th gear epsiode. I remember thinking how amazing that was for a collision at 30. I wonder what a crash between two old espaces would look like (and equally, two new ones). I'm not sure if it was the crumpling of the new car that helped destroy the old one but it could well be. Very interesting point. 5th gear were running a series of different crash tests. I cant remember if they did the ones with the smarts - that was quite shocking. The bodies of the cars looked ok after very high impact crashes (though I think they said it would be unlikely that any of the passengers would have survived).

 

[simch]

Interesting points here, but BTW, the "Killer" reference in the original title was refering to "performance", not to people necessarily! Although there are interesting points on the second scenario!

IIRC the MK2 XR2 had a weight of less than 900kg, may be wrong but it was possibly as low as 825! Suspect my 4 door leathered up mk4 to be nearer 1300! So as a std car the 96hp fiesta would be more sprightly than a 150hp gti turbo!

I had never really thought of the development of the hot hatch like this, but was aware they had gradually got bigger and more powerful!In performace terms, there has been little increase in pure speed and acceleration performace in near 20 years! The MK1 to MK5 comparison being a classic (and graphic) example, 5GT Turbo to Clio 182 being another!

DOes anyone reckon there is a market for 250hp sub 1000kg hatchbacks? Even in Ltd numbers, I reckon in this country they would sell like hot cakes.........?? Maybe not. Maybe a lightweight but very economical 150hp machine......(but then there are PD130's et al!)?

Hmmmmm!

 

[Blue V5]

ah, but thats the question; could you make a sub 1000kg hatchback that ticked all of the safety boxes and was still comfortable and not excessively noisy?

 

[simch]

How heavy is a clio?

 

[simch]

................see what you mean! lol

 

[KEITH 20VT]

Cant comment on Mk1 vs Mk5, but I currently own both Mk1 GTI and Mk4 1.8T and its interesting driving and comparing them both. The Mk4 is far superior in terms of comfort, noise levels, etc.... but the Mk1 is the car I would take any day for driving enjoyment, even though the Mk4 feels considerably quicker especially at higher speeds.

I can only imagine what a revo'd Mk1 1.8T would feel like - awesome!. I did buy a G60 engine to drop inot it a while back, but after driving the 1.8t I may have to rethink it all.

250bhp sub 1000kg hatchbacks would be awesome and surely sell, just a shame we cant persuade VW to build one!

 

[binlinerVR6]

MKV gti may be twice as heavy as the MK1 but it has roughly twice the power as well []

 

[simch]

Yep, that is my point, the thought of a 200hp hatch 15 years ago, was a dream to me!! Now we have em, but they aint any quicker than what we had all that time ago!! I have a tweaked mk2 gti and a chipped up MK4 18T and the mk2 is more fun for sure and not much slower!

Anyone remember the dreaded MG Maestro Turbo....!?!?! Released about 1985/6 and had a 0-60 of 6.9 secs, and near 140 mph!! Not many modern hatches as quick as that now!!

I may do like Badger5 and get a lupo 18T done!!!

 

[ianhg]

my s3 weighs 1400kg. its heavy but its built like a tank and i like it

 

[SC02FFF]

its not about rolling in a stripped out light cars anymore, its about rolling in luxary. seats comfort . i was running 1 seat in mylupo no interior was fast but not nice to be in..