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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm getting a bit desperate to finding a clutch solution for my uprated TDI 150. The cold wheather is setting in and the clutch is slipping more than gripping when the torque is layed down. I need a set up that can cope reliably with about 300lbft. I've spoken to a few tuners whome can't offer a solution for the dual mass flywheel set-up. I've spoken to dieselgeek who told me that the G60 VR6 flywheel/ sachs Golf VR6 single mass fly wheel will not work with the TDI 6 speed box fitted to the TDI 150 and 130. The 130 and 150 use the six speed box which has a 240mm flywheel and clutch. Apparently you need to get a high performance clutch for an Audi TT Quattro which uses the same style clutch?

Can anyone reccommend a proven solution?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Shah, I've spoken to Helix, their Technical expert is not back from his hols until the end of the week so I will let you know how I get on.
 

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Wakaday, not got an answer for you I'm afraid, but I sympothise. My tuning boxed TDi 150 has a similar problem, my clutch seems to slip in 3rd, 4th, 5th and even noticed it once in 6th gear! Thing is, If I am stationary and boot it in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc, I can get up to motorway speed without the clutch slipping. It only seems to happen if I am cruising and drop a gear and accelerate hard in higher gears????

Is this the same as yours?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Dieselman that's basically my problem, but mine's got a lot worse. The worst case for mine is when you floor it in 3rd or 4th at about 2,500 to 3,000 rpm. The sudden build up of torque just causes the clutch to slip away. I'm going to have a ring around again tommoorw to see if any of the tuners can offer a solution. It's a new clutch or a de-tune for the winter.
 

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yeah it happens if you floor it when the revs are at peak torque, did any of you try a clutch burn? i did it and it seems to have stopped it slipping.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Strangley enough my clutch has been slipping for England for the last week. I thought it was about to self destruct at any moment, so I started to drive very gently until I could investigate what clutch options are out there. The last few days the clutch has stopped slipping completly. I can only assume that the clutch has deglazed or some dust build up on the cover plate has cleared, or few drops of oil contamination have burnt off. I don't really know why?? The clutch is definately at it's limit around 300 lbft, unless I got a 'Friday afternoon clutch'!

To date the only option I could find for clutch replacement is to replace the dual mass flywheel with a single mass steel special unit, use a 5 paddle organic friction plate and HD cover. This is from helix and avalible in a few weeks at about £650+fitting. It should hold around 380 lbft. The single mass flywheel will chatter on a diesel. I have no ideal what it will be like to live with as no one has done it before?

Most of the tuners are quoting the same costs. I'm still waiting for a reply from AMD who never return my calls!

I'll keep you informed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
It basically gets a clutch burn every time I try and put my foot down. I'll wait till it starts to slip agian, then try the clutch burn. There is some logic in that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Bizarre, I did a clutch burn about a week ago and thing has gripped again, and it's still hanging on. I'm still expecting it to fail again so I'm still looking at options.

Does any one know dimentions of the friction plates; ie ID, OD, no. of splines? AP Racing don't list one but with a bit more detail there may be a compatible set-up.
 

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I have a helix paddle clutch and cover plate. cost 470+vat to fit at Stealth.

pros: Clutch doesn't slip anymore. Nice engagement when pressing on.

Cons: Rattly at low revs/speed. Harsh. On/Off action. Very difficult to drive smoothly

as it bites very suddenly.
 

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I had a borg & beck paddle clutch on a previous car many moons ago, and although at first you think you'll never master it, you develop Geoff Capes thigh muscles and all is sweet again!

You do get used to it, thats what i'm saying.

Forget it if your Mrs / Mum / Gran drives it part-time.

Good theft deterrent!
 

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quote:

Originally posted by wakaday

Does any one know dimentions of the friction plates; ie ID, OD, no. of splines? AP Racing don't list one but with a bit more detail there may be a compatible set-up.
Did you ever get any feedback on dimensions of your clutch ?
 

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Hi wakaday. I have the same problem as you, but mine is only just on its way out.

I dont realy want to spend £550 on a clutch and another £200 to fit it either, way to expensive, must be a less costly option, I'm not exactly doing the lemans!

I would rather keep the standard dual mass flywheel set up and just get a stronger clutch plate if I can.

I was given this link from another MKIV member earlier today:

http://www.allardmotorcompany.com/pages/products/pd_clutches.asp

There are a couple of clutch plates on there that claim to handle over 300 lbft, that fit straight onto a standard clutch setup (the 5 paddle uprated and the ceramic uprated). Now I have no idea if they will do the job, I was hoping someone on here would have already tried them out myself. But it looks promosing and I'm sure they will last longer than a standard clutch plate. Let us know if you have any joy.

Phil.
 

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Hi guys,

Not had any hands on experience with these problems, but as I work as a clutch designer I thought it might help if I clear up a few issues...

The cerametallic paddle type clutch disc (driven plate) will be the cheapest option as you can keep your current flywheel and cover plate (assuming it fits between these parts). The cerametallic paddles have a higher friction coefficient, so with the force of your current cover plate the clutch will transmit more torque. As a rough guide, it should transmit about 1.4 times more torque for the same clamp force. For example, in a PD150, the standard torque is around 236ftlbs. With 300ftlbs you've got about 1.3 times more torque, so with a clutch with cerametallic paddles that can now transmit 1.4 times more torque, you should be ok. The bite will definitely be more sudden, but you should be able to adapt your driving style to not give yourself whiplash on the way to work every morning. A word of warning however, because the bite is more sudden, you send the torque much more suddenly through the drivetrain, and these shock loadings can cause accelerated wear / failure of the gearbox components and other parts such as cv joints and the dual mass flywheel. Be aware of something else - for those of you with PD130/150 TDIs VW call your gearbox the MQ350. The 350 stands for the torque limit in Nm that the gearbox has been designed to transmit safely for the vehicle lifetime. 350Nm is about 259ftlbs, so if you're getting 300ftlbs you're increasing the wear rate on the gearbox. It would be advisable to make sure you use a decent oil in your gearbox, change the oil more frequently and maybe treat it with an additive that coats the moving parts with a low friction substance.

The longer you let your clutch slip, the quicker you heat up the spring in the cover plate that gives you the clamp force. Heating this spring will cause the force it can give to drop off fairly quickly, so you might find that the problem gets progressively worse.

Having had a bit of slip, the organic facings of the standard clutch will become glazed, and the friction coefficient of the glazed surface is lower than the unglazed surface. Once again, you're in a vicious cirlce - the slip problem gets worse, the temperature goes up, the clutch spring gets weaker. The "clutch burn" reccommended by other people seems to fix this, but don't overdo it.

Hope this helps you make a more informed choice.

Toby
 

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Hi Toby,

My Tdi150 has been remapped and is suffering in the higher gears now. Anything above 2500rpm in 3rd 4th 5th and 6th will result in clutch slip if i try and accelerate quickly. I was told by JBS to drive the car through the gears and not just stamp on the throttle in 4th at 20mph - i haven't been doing that but it's still dying.

If what you're saying about the torque rating on the gearbox is correct ( i have no reason to doubt you) then as long as you drive progressively there shouldn't be too much premature wear on the box, I can only assume that those people doing 2nd gear racing starts are building up a whole host of expensive problems in their drivetrain ....

I will be ordering a new friction plate from allards today which is rated to 220bhp and about 320lb/ft of torque, driven with a degree of mechanical sympathy i think this should cure the problem without causing more.

I did speak to a nice chap at Sachs who explained about sintered(sp?) clutches and organic clutches but theirs involved changing both friction plate AND cover plate, parts alone were approaching £450 and after reading what you wrote about the gearbox torque rating, i'm not so sure fitting a clutch that can handle that much power is a good idea!

Thanks for the info.

Cheers,

Patrick
 

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Both myself and Reflex TDi have uprated clutches for our 150's. The unit's came through Triple 8 but I think that JBS have taken over distribution. They're guaranteed to handle 340lb/ft and they said that it's likely they'd cope with at least 30lb/ft more. I think it was cheaper than £600 to buy too. However I got a limited slip differential fitted at the same time and that allows you to get the power down even better. The clutch actually still feels very oem and in 18months use it's never slipped once. I had it running with nos at 231bhp and 346lb/ft with no issues at all.
 

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I am admittedly being tight about this, next year i've got a few things planned including possibly a bigger turbo etc but for the short term i need a fix, an OEM clutch would be pointless and i don't have £600 to spank on a full clutch kit .....

I think it's going to be friction plate from allards for now and look at this again next year as part of a bigger upgrade.

On the plus side, my fuel consumption has never been as good!
 

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Surely buying a friction plate and getting the work done is going to be pretty expensive unless you're going to do the plate yourself?
 
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