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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
?400 for what exactly? they plug in a lap top and download new code for a few seconds then play on the rollers for a bit,which justifies some of the cost i suppose

but think about it,2 hours in a dealer would be ?120 plus parts,so i reckon a remap is at least twice what it should be

wonder if someone will have rthe balls to set some rollers up and charge a dedent price,they will clean up if they do
 

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Like any item it is only worth what people will pay! The difference between a remap and a dealer item is that the remap is a choice an upgrade not remedial or neccesary work. But yes i do agree they seem steep for the bit the consumer see's. But if you divide the cost across mileage and additional enjoyment they are worth it every time.

Thats my two pence worth.

I only paid ?200 to get my A2 remapped and that had no time on the rollers and i was pleased with the results but every so often the car went into limp home mode.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
years of research,tahst a laugh! they buy the code or get it on the sly,

there are great tuners i dont dispute that,they look after your car and map it on the rollers and give you a great product,thats not in doubt,but the price,around ?500 is ridiculous and there seems to be a sort of cartel going on

if there are years of research,how come tuners can start from scratch and low and behold they spookily charge the same?

and there ya go,?200 for an A2,prooving thats what they are worth,the price is hiked because of how popular the car is

its a con,albeit a market driven con
 

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So you can build a Daewoo Matiz for next to nothing, it's a car that goes from A to B. Now so is a Ferrari Enzo, a car, goes A to B.

Why should one be a higher price than the other?

Will you get real!!
 

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Supermario.Dave, first off, welcome to the forum. I think your opinion of re-mapping is a little "off course". Re-map Companies such as "Revo" spend vast amounts of time and money to perfect codes, and create new codes for new models. As Zeke and Jon say, you cannot get better value for money tuning. Pound for Pound you will get the best overall engine improvement from a re-map. The companies also offer great aftersales service, and I in particular have had great service from Revo (via Ian @ Powermap), and I dont regret one penny I spent on it. I have been Revo'd for a year and I feel I have already had value for money, everyday extra is a bonus!

Im confused by some of your comments:

1. "years of research,tahst a laugh!" - A great example of "years of research" being true is Revo, who still have not commissioned a full Golf MK5 range due to the model being so new, I hear they are due to launch new codes within the next month or two. The MK5 will have been available on the global market for nearly 2 years then. So the question is...if Revo had instant access to the codes, why wouldnt they sale them from the MK5's day of release?

Also if a company is to survive they need to spend more money researching newer models, and where does this money come from? The re-mapping of older models. They are a business and are entitlted to make a profit.

2."they buy the code or get it on the sly" - Who do they buy it from? Is there some master code maker for all cars that no one seems to know about? Also...even if your crazy X-files theory was correct, and they did buy the codes, they would still have to make back their costs and make a profit, hence the "high" prices.

3."?500 is ridiculous and there seems to be a sort of cartel going on" - I dont see how this can be the case, in fact prices for re-maps can vary for many reasons, some can have differences of over ?300, so how is this a "Cartel".

4."tuners can start from scratch and low and behold they spookily charge the same". See above.

5."?200 for an A2", price is also proportionate to power increase, I doubt very much you will get alot more power from an A2 compared to a 1.8T Golf, thus the price has to be proportionate, in the same way a size 13 trainer will cost more than a size 7. Ultimately you get more for your money. Ironically you have shot your own arguement down in flames by claiming that all Re-mappers charge the same, ?500, but in irony you have found an A2 can be Re-mapped for ?200. Hence your etire line of thought is made a mockery of.

6."its a con,albeit a market driven con" - I fail to see how Re-mapping is a con. It does exactly what you are sold, it tunes your car by a certain amount. People are willing to pay that price for that service, hence there is no con. I think the word you are looking for is "overpriced", and this is entirely your opinion. May I suggest that before you decide to slate the Re-mappers (many of whom frequent this site), that you get your facts straight before making random claims. It sounds to me like you want your car re-maped and cant afford the price youve been quoted, hence you felt the need to slate the idea. Do like the rest of us did, save up, get re-mapped and enjoy....life is too short.
 

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I think it's well worth the money for the enjoyment you get. Look at how much they rip off Mini Cooper S owners with tuning and you'll change your mind. At the end of the day if you think its a rip off don't buy it, no one's making you.
 

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Quote: posted by SuperMario.Dave on 02/03/2005 21:36:13

?400 for what exactly? they plug in a lap top and download new code for a few seconds then play on the rollers for a bit,which justifies some of the cost i suppose

but think about it,2 hours in a dealer would be ?120 plus parts,so i reckon a remap is at least twice what it should be

wonder if someone will have rthe balls to set some rollers up and charge a dedent price,they will clean up if they do

Have you ever taken a lease on a property, paid rates, insurance, staff wages, National Insurance etc? Its takes a lot of profit skimmed from "?400" remaps to cover those sort of numbers. You could probably get a cheaper remap from a call centre in Bangalore[:)].
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
ah,so,dealers don't have these overheads then? so when you get your Ecu reflashed the costs would be ?500? I haven't mentioned any particular tuner btw,that would be unfair,so i don't want to personalise it.I am alos aware that there are many tuners that are worth twice the normal rate,anyone who uses Scoobynet knows who they are,as an example

however,i am making a simple point,why aren't there any 'entry'level' tuners? ie if you can get a 200 quid map for an A2 then why not for other cars? (Estoril_blue-I don't really have an arguement to lose,i', questioning a market i see as over hyped and over charged,admittedly using dleiberately choice language to provoke discussion,after all,its a bbs)

your collective defence of the tuning industry is admirable,and in itself answers my questions,your/my/our cars are an emotional purchase,and having owned several tuned cars,i always wanted the 'best' map,so paid the rate.

but about now? i dont need anything more than a straight map to lift boost,as an example,so where do i go? i have to go any pay the going rate,yet a guy can get an A2 map for 200 quid?

ok its a free market place,cant argue with that,but if someone starts up and has the balls to challenge this market place with plug and go then they will clean up imo.

ps thanks for saying welcome,the gesture is returned:)

ps if anything electric goes on your car and the Ecu needs reflashing your map will be lost,and you would have to pay full whack again,how is that right? happened to me once with a Saab
 

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Quote: posted by SuperMario.Dave on 02/03/2005 21:36:13

?400 for what exactly? they plug in a lap top and download new code for a few seconds then play on the rollers for a bit,which justifies some of the cost i suppose

but think about it,2 hours in a dealer would be ?120 plus parts,so i reckon a remap is at least twice what it should be

wonder if someone will have rthe balls to set some rollers up and charge a dedent price,they will clean up if they do

Welcome to the forum.

Guess you are not surprised at the comments thus far but hey thats why its a forum for discussion. I guess there is some merit in your comments when applied to certain tuning outfits but to those mentioned by others (and some not as the list is quite long), bear in mind that the development of code by the more recognised and established tuners arose from originally replacing ECU's with their proprietary code to protect their intellectual equity. As technology and car manufacturers have further harnessed technology with each iteration of their cars/ECU's, the "quality" tuners have in tandem evolved, hence what you currently see (snapshot in time) to implement a remap is simply the fruits of "development work"....they did not start there. A point worthy of consideration to arrive at an answer to your original question posed.....

Personally, I am happy to pay the current asking prices as measured by the benefit gained, as long as that is delivered (i.e. does what it says on the tin) and improves my enjoyment of the car. But as with most things you tend to get what you pay for.

Over to you[;)]
 

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Quote: posted by SuperMario.Dave on 02/03/2005 23:53:34

ok its a free market place,cant argue with that,but if someone starts up and has the balls to challenge this market place with plug and go then they will clean up imo.

This is always healthy as a more competitive marketplace leads to keener pricing for the customer

ps if anything electric goes on your car and the Ecu needs reflashing your map will be lost,and you would have to pay full whack again,how is that right? happened to me once with a Saab

For the more established tuners, in my experience, this has not applied in fact. If a dealer flashes my ECU, I know that my remap will be reinstituted free of charge![:)]
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
ok,I was being disingenuious to many creative and talented tuners,hence why none were mentioned personally,and i hope no more are in this thread,but....................

I am not talking about tuning a powerful Impreza here,taking the fueling maps to the edge and bedding in a new exhaust,blah blah,I am taking about relatively small increases in torque and power in cars with turbos rated way above the current spec and proposed map.Its not as difficult as everyone makes out on these cars,its a straight forward software download with little risk to the engine,if any at all.Paying 500 quid for that is just a hell of a lot imo.

GT4 will come out soon,with a hell of a lot more research than lifting emissions limits on my car ie a remap,and Gt4 will cost ?39.99? is that a fair comparison?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
and another thing,about the so called years of research............the Mrk5 has only been out for a few months!! so i assume the tuners paid or just ended up with the maps,or just played with the Ecus with diagnostic tools,which admittedly cost money to buy and maintain,but years of research? nope,just software
 

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Mk5 has been out for 12 months and the audi same spec motrs longer than that. GTI is new, not sure if you mean that, but there are few remaps available as yet, going someway to show that they do need time to develop the code!

What A2 map are you on about? A turbo diesel?

Upsolute offer a generic remap for ?300, so closer to your ?200 than the ?500 you mention.

At east one tuner offers removal and reflash of its code for your car either free or for a nominal charge. So if the ECU on my car went they would flash my code back in for basically free.

How mcuh do you think a modern rolling road costs and which dealers do you know that have them?

Agree with you on some points especially the outfits that do not have rolers and just flash a code in in 3 minutes, but the places that set it up on rollers, ( my car was on for over 4 hours first time, and rejigged for free a few weeks later, adding a further 2.5 hours roller time) I think offer decent value.

Rolling roads are great tols, bu they aint cheap, and to a degree they are only as good as the operator. I would bet the mortgage that a decent RR operator is worht a darned sight more that some 18 year old monkey bolting brake pads in at 70 quid an hour + VAT!

Comes down to what you will pay for each BHP. Remaps on turbo stuff is great value, not so on NA. Why does a stainless tubular manifold for a mk2 cost near 300 notes, the stainless is only worth 15 quid. Someone has to weld it up, ship it, anther stock it sell it and warranty it, and turn a profit too.

Car tuners, dealers are there to make a profit, as someone rightly said yesterday, they aint charities!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
why do you mention Turbo diesel simch? Diesels are what I am really referring to,diesels are simple. Not having any ignition timing or airflow values to play with, they just up the fuelling. It may get a bit closer to teh maximum smoke density allowable by law and overrride the car's type approval ratings on CO2 emmissions but it will develop more power.

sorry,but thats not a lot for the money.Obviously,the price is reflective of the market,I am not some crazy socialist,I am simply saying that its not good value for a diesel thats brand new out of the box.Try and get an Impreza to 350bhp then absolutely,the tuner is your best friend and you will pay him want he wants to touch your beloved car

but ?500 to up the fueling a 2 month old car? Its worth 100 quid and at some point someone will offer those prices.Probably a skint senior mechanic in a dealer who needs the cash and has a double garage lying empty
 

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I can't disagree with the theory in general.

Where car delerships score, is the fact that they have multiple sources of income.

Selling cars and parts....in addition to their service guys.

The thing about genuine VW dealers (and of course other brand dealers too) is that they almost have a monopoly over the customer with a car under warranty.

Their charges are nothing short of criminal in some cases.

Also remember that cost is a factor of quantity......I don't think tunders have 10s of thousands of customers a week through their doors.

As rightly said, the price will be market-driven too.....what people are prepared to pay.

It's a balancing act for the sums......putting costs low will result in excessive numbers of buys, requiring many many more staff - in a specialist area where perhaps current 'availability' for staff with the required skills is short.

Keeping customer care and quality high may also mean a more personal service which is not always cheap to provide.

I'm relatively happy with the cost of a remap.....it's small beer compared to the cost of the car.
 

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It does seem a lot of money but if it transforms the car then I am sure it is worth it. People will pay hundreds for an exhaust & air filter which have a tiny influence in performance compared with a re-map.

On cost some companies (e.g. Superchips) have different levels of increase at different prices. e.g the tuning for BMW MINI. A +8bhp increase for a Cooper costs ?293 whereas the +30bhp increase for a ONE costs ?511. These are exactly the same code which they download making the two cars the same. The charge more for the ONE version as people will pay it as it is a substantial increase whereas in the Cooper it is minor.

Whether it is worth it or not is up to the individual but then it is not free or even cheap to develop this software and do it well.
 

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Superchips are showing the following re-maps for the mkV

1.6FSI +6bhp ?293 - doesn't seem worth it to me.

2.0FSI +9bhp ?293

2.0tdi +30bhp ?511

1.9tdi +27bhp ?511 - both diesel ones look pretty good.

Personally I doubt I would ever get one. I'm a bit uncomfortable with warranty issues and the impact on longevity of engine, gearbox drivetrain etc.
 
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