Volkswagen Mark IV Forum banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
thats quite a sobering read [:|]

makes me glad i spent a few months doing digging into who i was finally going to let remap my A3
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
165 Posts
Read it.. I wasn't sure whether to comment here or in the main thread.

But ultimately, it was a beta map after all.. Plus it was from a company that was founded on and known for generic software, rather than true custom software. Unlike for example Jabba (to name but 1 company) who are famed for producing custom software produced via many passes on a rolling road (so get it right the 1st time on the whole), and then only went on to produce generic software later. Perhaps its just me, but in my opinion, that makes them more experienced in this field.
Im not saying APR is bad at all, far from it.. But we are lucky here in the UK in that we have companies around that offer really decent bespoke mapping (and it isnt even particularly expensive!) Unlike the Americans for example who generally don't have this option and have to make do with the generic stuff.

Whats more, these engines have been around long enough, and tuned for long enough, that we have known for a long time what is possible to get out of them. I don't believe there will ever be a company that will produce some 'magic code' that will significantly better other popular software that exists already. At least not without grenading the engine after a short time. The engine will only take so much boost, can only push so much fuel, and will only stand so much timing. So in otherwise standard trim, they will only ever make so much power. No amount of software jiggery pokery is going to extract more..
The only exception of course being regular generic software, vs true custom made software that 9 times out of 10 will be better than the generic alternatives. But from what I can tell, this APR beta map wasn't exactly custom in the same sense that say a Jabba map is custom?

Also, surely if software is made correctly 1st time around, then it should not need further tweaking from Vtune, LemmiWinks or VagCom or whatever?
My car runs absolutely great just the way it is (custom mapped). I can honestly say I have no desire to attempt further home tweaking with Vtune or Lemmiwinks etc.. Not even to make inflated dyno figures for the afternoon ;)

Just my 2bhp's worth..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,208 Posts
True, its Beta code but come on.....should Dave's car have ever left Awesome in that state?
What if Dave didn't have access to vagcom or the knowledge to interprit data from it?
Should Dave's car have been looked at ASAP when he passed this data onto AGTI and APR?

11 deg timing pull? Sheer madness, APR have been tuning cars for years now so shouldn't slip up on something like that.

Regarding the use of Custom-Setting / Lemmiwinks.....My map is pretty much perfect and is set up to run on Optimax. Having the tools to retard timing should I ever want to can be very handy in the instance that I can only get 95ron fuel for example. Also works the other way, pour a load of octance booster in there and adavance timing equals smiles all round [:D]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
87 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The reason I have posted this is, as Gary quite rightly says, these things should have been checked prior to the car coming back to me as far as I know it was barely even road tested.

Jabba, as you quite rightly state are probably the pioneers in Custom remapping and have been doing it for years, APR are supposed to be entering the same game, they do the Dyno runs at AGTI and Jim sends the data to them, sort of a Remote Jabba by e-mail scenario, this would be all fine.....except there is no-one checking what is actually happening on the road. When you go to someone like Jabba or Custom Code if there is a problem either on your test drive or later, both will very quickly remedy the situation, I was at Blue flame the other day and got talking to a Guy who Knows Stuart J on Briskoda who is an avid supporter of Jabba, he has had his car trailered by Jabba from South of London, upto Jabba and back again...for free....to rectify what turned out to be something minor I believe now that's service and beyond!

The point here is, in effect I was doing APR/Awesomes job in running all the diagnostic runs and it's a good job I did and you have got to ask, how many other Stage 2 Beta cars are out there running in as bad a state as this AND when I brought this to APR and Awesome GTI's attention I was told I would have to wait my turn as APR have other customers who are a priority.

If you are going to do development work on customers cars then that customer SHOULD take priority if there is a problem with the mapping they are still selling this product and commanding a premium over the standard APR offering so they should be looking at the cars they have done and seeing if the maps on those cars are actually ok.

The tweaking with Lemmiwinks / Custom settings is useful with Octane booster and was, in my case used in conjunction with Vag-Com to check the timing, as Gary states it is also very useful if you need to run UL instead of SUL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
436 Posts
Dave

I think my car was one of the first AUM cars given a stage 2 Beta Map at Awesome.

I am going to speak to Jim about this as your post intimates that the MAP is contributing to a near fatal end to your engine. I personally am not going to criticise APR at this moment in time. I don't know what the issues are with your car but I'm sure there are reasons.

My car was mapped using 6 different overlay maps. Each time the car was run up the diagnostics were being downloaded so that APR were aware of what each parameter ie boost, fuelling N75 etc etc was doing. Since the MAP I have found the car to run perfectly. I have run the car ragged on 2 seperate trackdays since.It ran superbly not missing a beat. I would assume that if it was running close to the limit and close to your car's mapped the engine would have detonated. I too run a similar spec except I run a FMIC and Milltek zorst system.

My conclusion is that when driven to the limit under full load if a problem were to arise then on track would be the most likely place.

In the case of APR they are the No 1 VAG tuner in the US and Oz. They have considerable assets and run several race prepd cars to my knowledge. They are not micky mouse IMO and I would imagine that their software writers should know what they are doing.I would hope APR will respond to this thread as it would be helpful to clear this matter up.

Ian
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
436 Posts
Just spoken to Jim at Awesome.

All I will say is that I am very happy with my car and the APR map.

I will not get into the 'slagging' off game. My view is that if your happy with the way it drives then stick with it.

In my view as previously pointed out the APR map on my car has made a big improvement super smooth, great delivery and is a great product.

See you all at the next trackday.

Anyone coming to Coombe on the Autometrix day in July?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
680 Posts
Dave

I think my car was one of the first AUM cars given a stage 2 Beta Map at Awesome.

I am going to speak to Jim about this as your post intimates that the MAP is contributing to a near fatal end to your engine. I personally am not going to criticise APR at this moment in time. I don't know what the issues are with your car but I'm sure there are reasons.

My car was mapped using 6 different overlay maps. Each time the car was run up the diagnostics were being downloaded so that APR were aware of what each parameter ie boost, fuelling N75 etc etc was doing. Since the MAP I have found the car to run perfectly. I have run the car ragged on 2 seperate trackdays since.It ran superbly not missing a beat. I would assume that if it was running close to the limit and close to your car's mapped the engine would have detonated. I too run a similar spec except I run a FMIC and Milltek zorst system.

My conclusion is that when driven to the limit under full load if a problem were to arise then on track would be the most likely place.

In the case of APR they are the No 1 VAG tuner in the US and Oz. They have considerable assets and run several race prepd cars to my knowledge. They are not micky mouse IMO and I would imagine that their software writers should know what they are doing.I would hope APR will respond to this thread as it would be helpful to clear this matter up.

Ian
I think Dave was happy with it until he started to look at logs of his own car with vag-com... and what he saw was not safe at all in timing pull terms.

It drove fine. The logs showed very high level of CF which any tuner will confirm is not good for longevity.

Maybe your logs are fine Ian, maybe they are not. It drives like Daves did probably, well (as I have seen round Combe) Unless you have logged yours you wont know if its the same as Dave's or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
436 Posts
Howw many logs do I need to make what speeds and gears etc?

How long does it take and how hard do I need to drive it?

Ian
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
680 Posts
You need to drive it hard to show the full load characteristics.

block 020 is one which DSRR had some very high CF timing pull.

If you look at his logs you will see the sort of logs he did as a comparison.

I would do thru the gears acceleration and also single gear pull like you would see on a dyno, and have a look at them. You will know what yours is running like then.(with actual data)

regards

bill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,208 Posts
Make sure you log block 020 with another block which shows RPM, block 003 would be a good one as this will show your airflow in g/s and actual ignition angle.

Then another log with block 004 to check your intake temps and block 031 for lambda readings. I know Daves was running very rich so would be good to check yours.

Also wouldn't mind seeing a block 115 for requested against actual boost.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
436 Posts
For your info I too have an APR stage 2 map plus the usual extras ie Neuspeed FMIC Milltek DP and exhaust big brakes you name it. I do alot of track work especially in years gone by.
The APR map on my car in my oppinion as been superb. I had the 3 stage ECMS 3 years ago and then upgraded to stage 2 Beta Map in January. Since then the car has done 2 hard trackdays.It performed impeccably.
I have seen DSSR's post on the MKIV forum and as a result of his post regardings his findings I posted an e mail to APR which they are responding to. Secondly they rang me from the US.I am very happy with their explanation on how they are are going to resolve their battering on certain forums.....shame Dave didn't have a good response re his car.
I have spoken to Bill re data logging my car.
After consulting with Awesome and APR it would appear their technicians are attending the UK at Awesome in June for an open week for anyone with issues with their car.I will be attending for a check over....suffice to say our car has been running with an APR map from 30k up until it's current mileage of 96k and it hasn't missed a beat. Stage 2 has made a noticeable improvement in torque and smoothness over their first map.
I'm not into quoting figures of one company against another but all I know is that their software has made the car a better drive all round and I love it's flexability to change programmes via cruise.

Lets hope APR restore some faith back into this forum. I for one have been a good friend and customer of Tim Stiles and in my experience the service from Awesome has been 1st class and very helpful.

The tuning industry is a very difficult vocation especially with the advent of the internet which can be both positive and negative to peoples reputation.

Ian
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
680 Posts
For your info I too have an APR stage 2 map plus the usual extras ie Neuspeed FMIC Milltek DP and exhaust big brakes you name it. I do alot of track work especially in years gone by.
The APR map on my car in my oppinion as been superb. I had the 3 stage ECMS 3 years ago and then upgraded to stage 2 Beta Map in January. Since then the car has done 2 hard trackdays.It performed impeccably.
I have seen DSSR's post on the MKIV forum and as a result of his post regardings his findings I posted an e mail to APR which they are responding to. Secondly they rang me from the US.I am very happy with their explanation on how they are are going to resolve their battering on certain forums.....shame Dave didn't have a good response re his car.
I have spoken to Bill re data logging my car.
After consulting with Awesome and APR it would appear their technicians are attending the UK at Awesome in June for an open week for anyone with issues with their car.I will be attending for a check over....suffice to say our car has been running with an APR map from 30k up until it's current mileage of 96k and it hasn't missed a beat. Stage 2 has made a noticeable improvement in torque and smoothness over their first map.
I'm not into quoting figures of one company against another but all I know is that their software has made the car a better drive all round and I love it's flexability to change programmes via cruise.

Lets hope APR restore some faith back into this forum. I for one have been a good friend and customer of Tim Stiles and in my experience the service from Awesome has been 1st class and very helpful.

The tuning industry is a very difficult vocation especially with the advent of the internet which can be both positive and negative to peoples reputation.

Ian
so Ian

You still want yours logged to confirm its actual running settings or are you going to wait and hope the June visit will do that, (if) there's a problem with yours, or just Dave's.

can you let me know. I am a busy man.

cheers

Ta
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top