ESP - any good?

2807 Views 37 Replies 13 Participants Last post by PokerProTDI150, May 12, 2015

Melmoth

Discussion Starter · May 10, 2015 (Edited by Moderator)

My previous mk4 never had traction control (or power steering for that matter), the handling was sublime and it sort of put the power down but I never felt it needed any electronic driver aid, but starring at my dash on my current golf - I noticed it has ESP. I've not got the car on the road just yet so I haven't actually driven it or any other car with ESP to know whether it serves any real purpose. What is everybody's experience of this? Does it serve an actual purpose or is it just a marketing gadget which poses as a hindrance?

1 - 20 of 38 Posts

mattp1983

· #2 · May 10, 2015

It does work, its saved my ass in a few cars over the years, its mainly unintrusive in daily driving.

Found that it cuts a bit too easily if you boot a reasonably powerful car in 1st/2nd but turn it off and you can understand how effective it is.

Melmoth

Discussion Starter · #3 · May 10, 2015

It sounds like you would prefer to turn it off if you was on a drag strip then? Also is it jerky in operation?

S500

· #4 · May 10, 2015

I rarely drive with the ESP on. First thing I do is turn it off. Maybe I am just a great driver (or the four wheel drive is just very well planted)!

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doddy666

· #5 · May 10, 2015

On mine it's a hinderance and cuts in all the time in the dry when I'm going round long sweeping corners. It cuts in like someone hits the brakes mid corner, it wouldn't cause me to crash as I'm not going that quick but it's certainly not a good thing.
Imo esp only ever needed when there is ice and snow about

gerrywac

· #6 · May 10, 2015

We all like to think we're good drivers but the fact is that when it comes to car control most of us fall into the poor to mediocre category at best.

To be fair it's not entirely our fault as very few of us get any training whatsoever and even fewer get the chance to put theory into practice and then to practice and hone any skills we might have, practising on the trip to and from work isn't really an option

Even if you know the theory for most of us by the time we recognise the car is doing something we don't want by the time we've dug it out of the dusty shelves of our brain and decided a corrective action it's often a case of too little to late. Just witness the chaos when we get three snowflakes once or twice a year.

As far as I'm concerned ESP is simply a repeat of traction control and ABS where we had the same arguments and the outcome will undoubtedly be the same, the electronics can recognise the situation developing and implement corrective action far better and more quickly than the vast majority of drivers

Similar arguments are already starting about things like intelligent cruise control, hydraulic brake assist, city emergency braking, Driver Alert and similar safety systems that are being developed and increasingly fitted to even modestly priced small and family cars

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Melmoth

Discussion Starter · #7 · May 10, 2015

I think I'll be driving without it on, it sounds down right dangerous having something interfere with my driving. I feel uneasy about the idea that what I ask of the car won't be done because of these electronics.

I also don't know how the system will respond at my power level. Does ESP work by cutting the throttle or does it apply the brakes?

mattp1983

· #8 · May 10, 2015 (Edited by Moderator)

It does both, and it can apply power to the front wheel with grip and take it away from the one losing it. It can also independantly brake the rear wheels to help reduce over/understeer

It uses various sensors, ABS for wheel speed, yaw sendor, steering angle anx brake pressure.

To get it to kick in on a corner in dry conditions you have to either have crap tyres, going way way too fast, poor suspension setup (cars lowered more than 40mm will shovel and understeer terribly due to the wishbone design) or driving like a cretin.

When the esp (rather than just the straight traction control aspect) kicks in its very progresive and usually you only know by the light flicking on the dash and the fact the front end is now going where you want it.

The traction control aspect can be a little harsh and will cut the power fairly jerky, say if booting it off a roundabout for example, but that all depends on how much mchanical grip the car has due to tyres/suspension/bush condition and setup.

Whats your setup?

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Melmoth

Discussion Starter · #9 · May 10, 2015

It's only a daily car so nothing special but it can be competitive.

It's current running 500bhp with low 400ft-lb of torque, haldex locked in permanent 4wd, quite heavy at 1280kg compared to my old shell running 1040kg.

Suspension wise, I've got the usual bolt ons Bilstein B16 pss9 coilovers, compbrake solid top mounts, usrt tubular wishbones, tyrolsport solid steering rack mount, 034 motorsport solid subframe bushings, vf engineering engine mounts, TT hubs, neuspeed race drop links, s3 lower strut brace, 334x32mm rotors, 6 pot Porsche Cayenne calipers and so forth.
Tyres are semi-slick as the car is a daily, so I run a set of 235/45/17 Yokohama AD08R all around. Missed a few other handling mods but essentially there are no bushes on the front of the car, it's all rose jointed. Obviously the setup wants front and rear LSD but being a daily car I may not bother.

doddy666

· #10 · May 10, 2015

It actually must be hitting the brakes because it's too violent to just be the throttle but could be cutting throttle aswell I'm not sure but I do know i don't like it at all.

I turn it off everytime I get in the car now which is annoying but even though it's switched off its not actually off but it doesn't cut it unless your being stupid then.

@ gerrywac
Esp cannot be grouped with abs or the others you mention they all deserve there own assessment. Abs is a good thing on my golf as it rarely cuts and only works when it should, esp does not. Im sure it works well when it's needed but going half the speed the car is capable of taking the corner having it cut in just seams wrong.

Vipa V

· #11 · May 10, 2015

rockmonkey69 said:
It's only a daily car so nothing special but it can be competitive.

It's current running 500bhp with low 400ft-lb of torque

:lol:

:Y:

Vipa V

· #12 · May 10, 2015 (Edited by Moderator)

I have only found ESP useful in snow/icy conditions, it stops the wheels from skidding. MY old AGU didnt have ESP and I definitely notice the difference. It has kicked in a few times while I've been driving but nothing so intrusive for me, but have heard of others where it is big problem.

Probly best just get ESP coded out in your case though, the dash button will still leave it partially active.

gerrywac

· #13 · May 10, 2015

rockmonkey69 said:
I think I'll be driving without it on, it sounds down right dangerous having something interfere with my driving. I feel uneasy about the idea that what I ask of the car won't be done because of these electronics.

I also don't know how the system will respond at my power level. Does ESP work by cutting the throttle or does it apply the brakes?

Your choice of course but it's not one you get to make on increasing numbers of cars. The reaction is natural enough and is as old as technology we don't like the idea of having control taken away, either in part or especially wholly and we like to think our judgements, reactions and reliability are better than any machine or computer.

The reality of course is very different and well proven in aviation where by far the most common cause of accidents are down to pilot error and there are far more cases where an accident happen where a pilot disregards or takes control form instrumentation and automated systems than because the machine cocked up. Naturally when the machine cocks up that tends to get the publicity

As far as the stock system is concerned it works by analysing the vehicle dynamics and then trying to provide what it thinks to be corrective action both by selective braking to one or more wheels and cutting power when it thinks necessary and it works in conjunction with other systems when it thinks necessary

Heres what VW have to say http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/technology/glossary/electronic-stabilisation-control-esc

That said now you have revealed that your car isn't stock and running from near 3-5 times the power of factory cars (and god knows what other major or radical mods) I can only agree with you about turning it of and/or getting it coded out.

The ESP is designed around the dynamics of a factory car and an "average" driver and if the car is modified or the driver is not average or drives differently to what it expects the system will interfere at a point below that which the car or driver is capable of

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Melmoth

Discussion Starter · #14 · May 10, 2015 (Edited by Moderator)

Thanks for the advise, I hadn't considered having it mapped out, I'm going back for mapping soon for a bit more power - I'll be sure to ask for ESP to be mapped out. It would be a real bother having to press the button every time I get in the car.

Thanks everyone for your input! Little pic of the grocery getter as thanks!

E7BCEE92-9F8C-45CA-8A1A-100625DFAAC3_zps

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dopiaza

· #15 · May 10, 2015

ESP isn't there to let you drive like a pr!ck. It's there for when the unexpected happens. Stop kidding yourselves, if you had a rear blow out on a motorway there's no way you'd be safer with ESP off and relying on your l33t driving skillz innit. Of course, there are exceptions to this, on a heavily modified car I'd imagine it wouldn't know what the hell's going on anyway.

Turning it off every time you drive is ridiculous, if it keeps kicking in then you're either driving like an idiot or need to spend money on decent tyres rather than bigger wheels and more power.

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Melmoth

Discussion Starter · #16 · May 10, 2015 (Edited by Moderator)

dopiaza said:
ESP isn't there to let you drive like a pr!ck. It's there for when the unexpected happens. Stop kidding yourselves, if you had a rear blow out on a motorway there's no way you'd be safer with ESP off and relying on your l33t driving skillz isn't it. Of course, there are exceptions to this, on a heavily modified car I'd imagine it wouldn't know what the hell's going on anyway.

Turning it off every time you drive is ridiculous, if it keeps kicking in then you're either driving like an idiot or need to spend money on decent tyres rather than bigger wheels and more power.

I run AD08R tyres all around, they are good tyres. My wheels are not big (17") they are suitable so I can have wide tyres and it fits over my big brakes which are also needed.

I don't have to defend my driving, I drive safely. The fact I want ESP off every time I get in the car is a matter of choice - I am free to exercise because it saves me having to do so should I decide to drive spiritedly - something I feel I am entitled to do, there is a time and place for it. So let's not kid ourselves and pretend we modify our cars just to jack off over at static meets.

dopiaza

· #17 · May 10, 2015

rockmonkey69 said:
I run AD08R tyres all around, they are good tyres. My wheels are not big, they are suitable so I can have wide tyres and it fits over my big brakes which are also needed.

I don't have to defend my driving, I drive safely. The fact I want ESP off every time I get in the car is a matter if choice I am free to exercise because it saves me having to do so should I decide to drive spiritedly - something I feel I am entitled to do. So let's not kid ourselves and pretend we modify our cars just to jack off over at static meets.

I wasn't aiming any comments at anyone in particular, sorry if it came across that way.

Melmoth

Discussion Starter · #18 · May 10, 2015

It's fine, it's difficult to interpret these things over the internet ????

gerrywac

· #19 · May 10, 2015

doddy666 said:
It actually must be hitting the brakes because it's too violent to just be the throttle but could be cutting throttle aswell I'm not sure but I do know i don't like it at all.

I turn it off everytime I get in the car now which is annoying but even though it's switched off its not actually off but it doesn't cut it unless your being stupid then.

@ gerrywac
Esp cannot be grouped with abs or the others you mention they all deserve there own assessment. Abs is a good thing on my golf as it rarely cuts and only works when it should, esp does not. Im sure it works well when it's needed but going half the speed the car is capable of taking the corner having it cut in just seams wrong.

Personally I don't regard ESP any differently to the others, it's a driver control/safety aid but you need to recognise it's one designed for the average driver using the car on the road as it was designed.

If you for example triple the power, fit semi-slicks and drive as if on the track it's not surprising it will become obtrusive and behave in a manner you think inappropriate if it still thinks it's Mums 100PS Golf medium family hatch on 185x65x15 ECO tyres going down to the shops!

That's why genuine performance and supercars generally have several different settings to control the behaviour to suit how it's to be driven and sometimes including the option to turn everything off and leave it to the driver

Melmoth

Discussion Starter · #20 · May 10, 2015

Ideally the system should behave according to an algorithm that is preset to allow a given percentage of slip and cutting power to achieve the target slip every thousandth of a second say. That would work nicely regardless of power or road/tyre conditions.

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