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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is this ethical?

If you think it is then what is the best sniping tool?

I'm undecided on the ethics of it so other points of view would be welcome.
 

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Of course its Ethical, why wouldnt it be [:S]

I use Hammersnipe, you get 3 free snipes a week & it snipes within the last 10 seconds. I've only ever missed out if I havent put in a high enough max bid, which is that same as would have happened if i'd have been sat there & bid on it.

Its also ideal if the item ends at a silly time like 2.25am, who wants to get up & bid at that time of day , not me.

At the end of the day I use it because its easier than worrying about missing the auction end time, I just place my bid & sit back & not worry about.

2p
 

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Why wouldn't it be ethical?
It's simply an automated bidding
tool, sniping doesn't guarantee you're going to win, the highest bid
still wins whether it's sniped or not. It saves sitting in front of a
PC like a sad twat refreshing your screen every 10 seconds to see if
there's been a bid before you place yours in the last seconds of the
auction. If someone's dumb enough to place a bid 4 days before the
end of the auction and show their interest then they shouldn't be
suprised when others wait until the end to show their hand and still
out bid.......

As Jace said it means I can place my highest bid and go and have a life while the auction runs it's course.
 

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Happily using esnipe since 2001. They pioneered the technology and I've never lost out due to any technical glitches on their part. You only pay for succesful snipes... and even that is a neglible amount considering the amount you can save.

Aside from being able to place bids at unsociable hours it also gets you out of bidding wars, so your interest in the item is only fully expressed 6 second before the end [;)]

C
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I actually think it's pretty unethical because it subverts the idea of a true auction ie the price is artificially supressed until a last minute frenzy of bidding which never runs its natural course. Worse still it's automated so is cheating that way as well.

Still I'm not discounting it as an idea although I'm still wrestling with the moral implications of using the methods outlined here. Believe it or not I'd actually be happier to pay more than win something by 'cheating'. If I couldn't be bothered/was unable to be at the computer I guess like a real auction I'd just miss out.

As an example when I was selling a car recently I had an offer over 1K above the price I'd already agreed with someone else. In effect the 1st buyer was being gazumped, I turned down the higher offer, stuck to my word and took the loss. Some things are more important than mere money although I suppose it depends where your priorities lie.

Ethics and Karma, two tricky subjects.

Anyway thanks for the info I'm going to look into it, although I may never use it.
 

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Doesn't subvert or artificially do anything, the item is there on ebay for all to see and bid on. As for cheating because it's automated, no, I disagree again.
On ebay the highest bid wins, so what's the difference if that bid is placed automatically by a sniping tool or by the action of the ebay automated system. Don't forget ebay is automated too, it bids in increments up to the limit of the bid you place.

Why are you happy to bid more, simply because it's an auction? You wouldn't go into Tescos and pay more for a bottle of wine simply because they'd put a '+10% for ethical people' sticker on it....

The analogy with the car doesn't work - it wasn't an auction - what you did was, I think, what most people here would do. Had you been auctioning the car then the one with the highest bid would've won, not the one who bid first.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Of course it subverts it. The idea as far as I can see with sniping is to win the item by getting in at the last minute ie denying someone else the opportunity to make a higher bid.

In a car auction for example this isn't possible as if I want to get the vehicle I need to bid higher than anyone else. The idea of the sniping tools as far as I can see is to only make your interest known at the last possible moment and thus deny someone else the option of bidding more. Any private sale has an element of 'auction' to it, similarly selling a house and if someone had offered to gazump one of the buyers of my properties they'd have got the same answer. My soul isn't for sale.

You've made my mind up with that post, morally I can't use sniping tools they are disingenuous at best. Thanks for making it clear to me.
 

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Of course it subverts it. The idea as far as
I can see with sniping is to win the item by getting in at the last
minute ie denying someone else the opportunity to make a higher bid.
Not really because everybody puts a maximum bid which ebay submits for
you automatically when you are outbid anyway. If your maximum bid using
a sniping tool is the highest of any bidders then you win, if not you
lose
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Obviously but the idea is to deny anyone else the possibility of making their maximum bid higher which is what I was getting at with the text you quoted.

I've resolved the problem in the case of the item I want by bidding more for it than it could be bought for brand new in the shops. Should get right up the noses of any auction snipers/bbs whiners (see lots of whinging posts about why do people pay more for stuff than you can get it in the shops on ebay in other forums) and the cost is insignificant to me as I'll be claiming it back against tax.........
 

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What A load of old tosh.

So when the guys saying "Going once, going twice, any last bidders"

Then a guy puts his hand up & out bids the last bidder.

Thats what auctions are all about "He with the deepest pockets wins"
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
"He with the deepest pockets wins"

Or in the case of auction sniping he with the snide tool wins. The name itself is a giveaway the more I think about it, sniping is hardly an ethical tool of war. The live auction you mention doesn't work the way you described anyway.

It's the stealth aspect I find immoral. I also find it rather amusing an also very revealing you feel the need to defend your position with comments like 'what a load of old tosh'.

Still you stick to your theory and I'll stick to mine. Money isn't my God.
 

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What A load of old tosh.

So when the guys saying "Going once, going twice, any last bidders"

Then a guy puts his hand up & out bids the last bidder.
In this case the bidding will start again. The guy who bid before the last minute bid gets a chance to bid again. With sniping this is not possible as the auction is timed, it is not based on interest.

Personally I don't snipe. Purely because I cannot be bothered to investigate it properly.
 

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Obviously but the idea is to deny anyone else the possibility of making their maximum bid higher which is what I was getting at with the text you quoted.
It doesnt make any difference and your not getting what we are saying. If I enter a maximum bid on ebay 5 days before the auction ends of ?100, then thats my maximum bid. If I set that as my maximum bid, tough women baps...why should I have the chance to increas it if you come in at the last minute and bid higher? Maximum bid says it all, put the maximum your willing to spend in.

If you enter into your sniper, maximum bid of ?110 then you will win it if it was just use too bidding.

However, if I said my maximum bid on ebay was ?115 and you had set your sniper to ?110, I would win.

Same as if I bid half an hour before you at ?100 maximum bid and you set your sniper to snipe in the last 5 secs at ?100, I would win the item, my ?100 bid was in first.

Ebay snipes for you in that respect. I don't see any ethical reason not to use it?!
 

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"He with the deepest pockets wins"

Or in the case of auction sniping he with the snide tool wins. The name itself is a giveaway the more I think about it, sniping is hardly an ethical tool of war. The live auction you mention doesn't work the way you described anyway.

It's the stealth aspect I find immoral. I also find it rather amusing an also very revealing you feel the need to defend your position with comments like 'what a load of old tosh'.

Still you stick to your theory and I'll stick to mine. Money isn't my God.
The person with the snipe tool only wins if he sets his maximum bid higher....so yes, the person with the deepest pocket wins!

From what your saying, if I set my maximum bid for a pencil at ?1000 without a snipe tool, your snipe tool would bid ?1010 for that same pencil? Don't think so!

Person who enters the most always wins, regardless of sniping.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I 'get' what's being said. What you and others don't 'get' is that auction sniping removes the possibility to respond to your maximum bid by increasing mine. The key issue for me is the removal of the ability for others to respond. The removal of this ability to respond by last second sniping is what I find unethical.

Or as it was put here 'he with the deepest pockets wins'. In the case of sniping it seems the intention is to allow the devious and impecunious to buy items cheaper than their true market value. This is clearly unfair to the vendor which is why I don't intend to do it.

On reading what I put previously to this it seems fairly clear to me that I've been saying this all along.

The rest of you feel free to do as you please obviously but don't try and kid yourselves it's anything other than a dirty tactic.
 

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I 'get' what's being said. What you and others don't 'get' is that auction sniping removes the possibility to respond to your maximum bid by increasing mine. The key issue for me is the removal of the ability for others to respond'

Or as it was put here 'he with the deepest pockets wins'. In the case of sniping it seems the intention is to allow the devious and impecunious to buy items cheaper than their true market value. This is clearly unfair to the vendor which is why I don't intend to do it.

The rest of you feel free to do as you please obviously but don't try and kid yourselves it's anything other than a dirty tactic.
What?!

So where does it end? If say I have a bid on an item, someone outbids me at 5 mins before close. I bid again, and outbid them 30 secs before close. They raise, then I raise again....

Should I not raise because theres only 10 seconds left to give them a chance!? WTF!

Maximum bid is MAXIMUM bid, if someone else wnats to bid higher, tough.

As for the 'cheaper than market value' comment. Its a risk you take on ebay. Start your price off low, you risk selling low, which is why the reserve price feature is there.

I really do not get what your getting at. Should we all bid consious of the other person and say 'ahh sorry mate, I wont the item, but didnt give you time to reconsider what you had already set as your maximum spend.....like to reconsider again?'
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
You can do as you please, I've found a solution that enables me to beat all the sniping tools in the world in the case of the item I want. I just pay more than the other person can afford or wants to pay.

Look at it anyway you like but the idea of sniping as I see it is to stealthily bid rather than declaring an intention upfront, which others on the thread have confirmed. I don't find this ethical, you may do, that's entirely your prerogative. Just hope you don't ever bid against me because you'll lose.
 

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My soul isn't for sale.
Touch dramatic....?

Once again I think your analogies are not really comparing apples with apples. Let's take a really basic example:

Seller puts an item up for 99p as a start bid (let's say for an example that it's worth ?100)

  • You, using the ebay system, bid to your maximum of ?70 - the item shows as bid for 99p and no-one can see your maximum
  • I, using my snipe, bid to my maximum of ?60 - the item still shows your bid for 99p and no-one can see my bid or my maximum

Nobody else bids and the item closes - you win because you bid more for it - I didn't have the opportunity to bid more for it, so does that make me morally disadvantaged? no - I chose my maximum and chose my bidding method, and still lost.......

With ebay you should think of it as a sealed bid, fixed time system, if you don't then I think you're taking a rather naive view.
At a car auction the auctioneer is there to make the most money for the house, so if there's a flurry of bids he'll keep it running to see if he can get his commission up a bit. He won't stop while there's still bids to be taken - ebay does, it simply finishes at the time specified. Have you ever seen an auctioneer taking bids 'off the wall'? if you want to take the moral high ground here then winge about that......

If you haven't put your maximum bid in by the end then why you should cry foul when someone else gets there just in time. If someone chooses to bid on ebay and doesn't put their maximum bid in then I see that as leaving them open to losing the item to a higher bid. What's the point of sticking a bid on then saying 'I'd have paid another ?10 for that', they should've put the higher bid on in the first place.

Whatever you call them, snipes are just bidding tools, they're not an automatic auction winning system. After all snipes are hardly secret are they, there's always talk somewhere about them. There's no subterfuge, subversion, or similar involved.

The morals here as I see it are: if you don't place your highest bid, then don't winge when someone else wins - if you do place your highest bid then accept the outcome, whatever it may be.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Looked at as a sealed bid I can see some relevance to what you're saying. I'd never considered ebay that way always thought of it as an auction site. That's probably somewhat naieve but I'm new to the world of buying other people's tat.

I personally wouldn't cry foul if someone beat me, I've already said I've removed that from the equation by paying more than the other party can afford or is willing to pay.

As for a touch dramatic, over egging the pudding is a great way to emphasise a point and foment debate.
 
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