Volkswagen Mark IV Forum banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
779 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry to be a bit dim ere,but on the dsg can it be used as an auto box,or is that what it is..Just not up on all this tech stuff
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
106 Posts
The DSG is great - I had one for a couple of days this week.

You have normal Drive mode - same as any other auto. Then you have S (sport ?), which changes gear later and revs a lot higher [:D]

On top of that, when in D, you can knock the shifter to the left, which effectively turns it into a very quick shift manual without a clutch. You have a forward and backward motion, so you can move up and down the gear range as you like just by knocking the shifter up or down.
On top of that, you can have a different steering wheel as an option, which has the gear change paddles on it just like a F1 car !!

The one I had was the stealers courtesy car, so needless to say, I had great fun in it ! [:p]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,063 Posts
Sounds very much like Merc 'Tiptronic' set up which has been around for years. With that when you are in D you just tap the stick left or right to go up and down the gears. However in reality what it does is simply prevent the box from changing higher than the s elected gear. It will still work as an auto. Lets say you are going down a steep hill in D. Tap the shift lever to the left a couple of times until the dash display shows '3' and it will not change higher than third, giving you useful engine braking. If you put the brakes on to stop at the bottom the engine will not stall, the auto takes over but when you pull away again it will not change past third unless you tap the stick twice to the right to go to fifth or seventh if you have the latest 7-Gtronic box (D will then be displayed).

Is DSG the same as this?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Yeah but it might as well be an auto-box.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p> </o:p>

The trouble with DSG is that it is very clever, too clever IMHO.

<o:p> </o:p>

I?ve not yet driven a Golf GTI with DSG, but can only talk on my experiences driving my wife?s Audi A3 2.0TDi DSG - does the Golf have different (hopefully more sporty) DSG firmware?

<o:p> </o:p>

I?m currently planning on buy a Golf GTI, but as I?m in no hurry I?m waiting for the Recaro seat option to be confirmed, but I will be most probably buying a manual.

<o:p> </o:p>

My current car a BMW M3 is fitted with SMG which compared to DSG is by far the real driver?s choice.

<o:p> </o:p>

There are many thing I dislike about DSG compared to SMG here are my main two gripes;

<o:p> </o:p>

With SMG you are in total control of the gears, with DSG the box will change up for you if you get near the limiter ? with SMG and a manual box you just bounce of the rev limiter.

<o:p> </o:p>

With DSG the stick is the wrong way round! Out of all the sequential race cars I driven (Jaguar JP1, Clio Cup etc) you push the stick forward to change down and pull on the stick to change up the gears. This makes perfect sense when you?re driving on the limit as when braking hard gravity is pushing you forward and when accelerating you are being pushed back into your seat.

<o:p> </o:p>

I know that VW say that the DSG is quicker, in a straight line maybe ? but I would suggest that a properly driven manual in the real world would be quicker because you would have total control over which gear you are in at all times.

<o:p> </o:p>

That?s not to say DSG is a bad system ? the auto mode is excellent compared to SMGs effort. But for me it?s just not sporty enough!

Matt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
Yeah but it might as well be an auto-box.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p> </o:p>

The trouble with DSG is that it is very clever, too clever IMHO.

<o:p> </o:p>

I?ve not yet driven a Golf GTI with DSG, but can only talk on my experiences driving my wife?s Audi A3 2.0TDi DSG - does the Golf have different (hopefully more sporty) DSG firmware?

<o:p> </o:p>

I?m currently planning on buy a Golf GTI, but as I?m in no hurry I?m waiting for the Recaro seat option to be confirmed, but I will be most probably buying a manual.

<o:p> </o:p>

My current car a BMW M3 is fitted with SMG which compared to DSG is by far the real driver?s choice.

<o:p> </o:p>

There are many thing I dislike about DSG compared to SMG here are my main two gripes;

<o:p> </o:p>

With SMG you are in total control of the gears, with DSG the box will change up for you if you get near the limiter ? with SMG and a manual box you just bounce of the rev limiter.

<o:p> </o:p>

With DSG the stick is the wrong way round! Out of all the sequential race cars I driven (Jaguar JP1, Clio Cup etc) you push the stick forward to change down and pull on the stick to change up the gears. This makes perfect sense when you?re driving on the limit as when braking hard gravity is pushing you forward and when accelerating you are being pushed back into your seat.

<o:p> </o:p>

I know that VW say that the DSG is quicker, in a straight line maybe ? but I would suggest that a properly driven manual in the real world would be quicker because you would have total control over which gear you are in at all times.

<o:p> </o:p>

That?s not to say DSG is a bad system ? the auto mode is excellent compared to SMGs effort. But for me it?s just not sporty enough!

Matt
I cannot say for sure about the software in the A3 but i had a golf GT dsg on loan before my car arrived and the software in that was defo different, much slower than the GTI version. In fact it almost put me off as it didn't change very smoothing going down the box. The GTI version is much better

I am very surprised you like SMG more than DSG, i have also owned a M3 with SMG, the SMG just feels crude by comparison, sure, you get used to lifting off slightly in a smg for a smooth shift, but every time you go for full power changes at the fastest speed setting it really feels like you are killing the gearbox. Reference the rev limiter, i know what you mean but how many times on the road do bounce of the limiter ? and then not want to chance up, it maybe more of a problem on track days. The DSG will not change for you at any other times than if you hit the limiter.

I have a friend who is a sales manager for BMW in london and pretty much all their M3's are sold with SMG, he has a CSL. He had read press articles and quoted like yourseld that 'SMG is more envolving etc', he then drove the GTI dsg and was blown away and changed his opionion, when driving the DSG car he kept lifing off slightly when changing up as he would in his CSL, he was surpised how smooth the dsg was under flat up changes and the speed of change. It looks like smg on it's fastest setting will change quicker but who needs that change speed when the change is so smooth with no break in the drive to the wheels.

I reckon you should try a GTI with DSG and see what you think....

Also have you heard that BMW are developing a Dual Clutch gearbox ?, there was talk about it comming out next year on the 130 turbo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
406 Posts
Yeah but it might as well be an auto-box.

The trouble with DSG is that it is very clever, too clever IMHO.

I?ve not yet driven a Golf GTI with DSG, but can only talk on my experiences driving my wife?s Audi A3 2.0TDi DSG - does the Golf have different (hopefully more sporty) DSG firmware?

How can you compare its performance when the engines have such different absolute outputs and the characteristics of that output? Go try a GTI or TT 3.2 DSG.

I?m currently planning on buy a Golf GTI, but as I?m in no hurry I?m waiting for the Recaro seat option to be confirmed, but I will be most probably buying a manual.

My current car a BMW M3 is fitted with SMG which compared to DSG is by far the real driver?s choice.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p>How is a slower, jerkier change the "drivers choice" (obviously the extra 203 horsepower over your TDI, or 143 BHP over the GTI must be ignored if we are just talking gearboxes, is that even possible?)</o:p>

There are many thing I dislike about DSG compared to SMG here are my main two gripes;

With SMG you are in total control of the gears, with DSG the box will change up for you if you get near the limiter ? with SMG and a manual box you just bounce of the rev limiter.

<o:p>Ok I can see the point in holding a gear round a bend etc, but when do you hold a gear AT the rev limiter, kangarooing and messing the engine up. The DSG will ONLY change to to protect the engine - that is still a long way into the redline area in the GTI - TDIs wont have the same change up as their "redline" area is pointlessly power sapped. The DSG has 3 modes, Auto, Auto S, Manual - even in Auto when you kick down it will go into the red.</o:p>

With DSG the stick is the wrong way round! Out of all the sequential race cars I driven (Jaguar JP1, Clio Cup etc) you push the stick forward to change down and pull on the stick to change up the gears. This makes perfect sense when you?re driving on the limit as when braking hard gravity is pushing you forward and when accelerating you are being pushed back into your seat.

<o:p>That is true, the issue is probably a combination of ergonomics and legal advice . Drivers used to standard Auto boxes with "3,2,1" holding postions BEHIND "D" would be confused by "Sports" derived sequential box, due to that, and probably scared of American litigation if it went pear shaped they have opted for the "boring" layout.</o:p>

I know that VW say that the DSG is quicker, in a straight line maybe ? but I would suggest that a properly driven manual in the real world would be quicker because you would have total control over which gear you are in at all times.

<o:p>Ignore the "gearstick", try the paddles and don't try to stall the engine at <700 RPM and destroy the engine at over 7,000 RPM and you'll find it quite hapilly stays in whatever gear you choose, just like a manual.</o:p>

That?s not to say DSG is a bad system ? the auto mode is excellent compared to SMGs effort. But for me it?s just not sporty enough!

You may have a point here as it is not nearly as satisfying as a manual when you can place an exact gear "think 3rd - move lever from 6th to 3rd", instead its "think 3rd - count clicks once, twice, three times, its in 3rd now". Also you don't get the involvement satisfaction in making a great rapid up change by stamping on the clutch and releasing as soon as possible, or the satisfaction in "heal and toeing" for a down change into a corner.

However it is exceptionally quick when you just want to go, it is perfect every time and it is a godsend in city traffic or M25 crawling. You just have to give it time to get used to it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Thanks Doc, will test drive a GTI DSG before I place my order - good to know that its more sporty in the GTI.

Although I still can't get my head around the stick being set-up the wrong way round.

Personally I like the fact that you have to learn a new skill to drive SMG, no skill needed with DSG - its too easy which at first may be impressive but long term I'm sure it would be boring.

I too have heard rumours that BMW were looking at a dual clutch gearbox, but lastest was they had dropped the idea in favour of developing SMG. The new 7 speed SMG box in the M5 is an ace!

EVO magazine who rate the Golf GTI reckon that the DSG box takes away some of the enjoyment - but then as with most car magazines they always seem to prefer the manual choice.

MATT
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
I?m currently planning on buy a Golf GTI, but as I?m in no hurry I?m waiting for the Recaro seat option to be confirmed, but I will be most probably buying a manual.

My current car a BMW M3 is fitted with SMG which compared to DSG is by far the real driver?s choice.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p>How is a slower, jerkier change the "drivers choice" (obviously the extra 203 horsepower over your TDI, or 143 BHP over the GTI must be ignored if we are just talking gearboxes, is that even possible?)</o:p>
Have you driven both systems at length?

Who says the change is slower?

It's the driver who makes the change jerky, you have to learn how to drive a sequential box - just like we all first learnt to drive a manual with a clutch.

I do plan to test drive at length the DSG sytem in the GTI, but gut feel says I will still probably still go for the manual.

Hell wouldn't life be boring if we all liked the same things. I'm just glad VW offer both systems unlike the current trend with BMW.

MATT
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
440 Posts
I have had the DSG now for five weeks and I must say I would find it hard to go back to manual.

At the end of the day this is a manual Gearbox without a clutch pedal unlike all the slushy Auto boxes that have been around for years.

I am driving mine now pretty much in manual all the time, that's what I bought it for. A lot of people take the DSG out for a test drive and keep it in "D" missing the point.

Yes the box will change at the rev limiter but why would you want to be bouncing your car off the rev limiter, I never did it in my manual MKIV GTI, you are past the power band anyway so should be going for another gear before you hit it. There is so much torque in the GTI you can change well before the limiter without affecting forward momentum.

On the other end of the Rev band the box will change down for you if the revs drop below 900, which again you should be doing yourself unless you want to stall.

Unlike the Torque Converter Auto boxes the gears are not queued up until the box decides to change. If you are in 6th and hit the paddle twice you will be in 4th immediately ,which can give you engine braking like a manual. You have to be aware that the box will blip the throttle on the downchange to match the revs so there will be no engine braking for the first second or so.

You're the one who decides what gear you want to be in unless you're going past the rev limiter on a downchange or going to stall it on an up change in which case it does not change or queue the gear until the conditions are right, it just stays in the current gear.

In manual mode the box will still change down if you floor the accelerator really fast, which I would have preferred not to happen, gentle or even reasonably fast flooring of the accelerator will leave it in gear, although it does mean that even in manual you can get to 3rd in less than a second which would normally have taken 3 taps of the paddle.

I have no doubt that a manual driven right will be as fast or quicker, but you have to make perfect gear changes everytime. With the DSG you do make perfect gear changes. It is noticeable when accelerating with people beside you that you can pull a car length while they are changing gear.

I just love this system, come into a corner two taps on the paddle into 4th, power round the bend, tap into 5th, tap into 6th [:D].
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
I?m currently planning on buy a Golf GTI, but as I?m in no hurry I?m waiting for the Recaro seat option to be confirmed, but I will be most probably buying a manual.

My current car a BMW M3 is fitted with SMG which compared to DSG is by far the real driver?s choice.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p>How is a slower, jerkier change the "drivers choice" (obviously the extra 203 horsepower over your TDI, or 143 BHP over the GTI must be ignored if we are just talking gearboxes, is that even possible?)</o:p>
Have you driven both systems at length?

Who says the change is slower?

It's the driver who makes the change jerky, you have to learn how to drive a sequential box - just like we all first learnt to drive a manual with a clutch.

I do plan to test drive at length the DSG sytem in the GTI, but gut feel says I will still probably still go for the manual.

Hell wouldn't life be boring if we all liked the same things. I'm just glad VW offer both systems unlike the current trend with BMW.

MATT
Matt has a point the SMG is faster, on full speed the SMG is V quick, however the point is with DSG you don't need such a quick change becuase the drive is never really stoped to the wheels. SMG has to be fast as the clutch actullay disengaes and then changes gear. Saying that how can you compare shift times, DSG does not really shift in the same way, the next gear is already lined up and the clutches swap. The clever thing about DSG is that it does not need to be super fast the be effective and smooth. As SMG is based in a manual it needs to almost do the same job as a manual, which means speed is the key.

True, you do need to get used to driving a SMG and after a while it feels like the best ever, however, when i first got DSG after SMG it did feel strange again but now when i drive my mates SMG it feels very crude, even he thinks so and he is a BMW man through and through.

Matt, try it, honestly it really is as good as they say, the exhuast note in the GTI is also louder so you can hear the changes more which makes it seem more like the SMG or a manual, the GT which i borrowed you couldn't hear the engine much at all which made it seem almost like it had one gear rather than 6. The GTI is a very different experince, trust me I'm a Doctor !!;-)

I would not go back to a manual or SMG, however i am going to drive the new M5 (just for clairty, you understand), even if it is SMG ! :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
I have had the DSG now for five weeks and I must say I would find it hard to go back to manual.

At the end of the day this is a manual Gearbox without a clutch pedal unlike all the slushy Auto boxes that have been around for years.

I am driving mine now pretty much in manual all the time, that's what I bought it for. A lot of people take the DSG out for a test drive and keep it in "D" missing the point.

Yes the box will change at the rev limiter but why would you want to be bouncing your car off the rev limiter, I never did it in my manual MKIV GTI, you are past the power band anyway so should be going for another gear before you hit it. There is so much torque in the GTI you can change well before the limiter without affecting forward momentum.

On the other end of the Rev band the box will change down for you if the revs drop below 900, which again you should be doing yourself unless you want to stall.

Unlike the Torque Converter Auto boxes the gears are not queued up until the box decides to change. If you are in 6th and hit the paddle twice you will be in 4th immediately ,which can give you engine braking like a manual. You have to be aware that the box will blip the throttle on the downchange to match the revs so there will be no engine braking for the first second or so.

You're the one who decides what gear you want to be in unless you're going past the rev limiter on a downchange or going to stall it on an up change in which case it does not change or queue the gear until the conditions are right, it just stays in the current gear.

In manual mode the box will still change down if you floor the accelerator really fast, which I would have preferred not to happen, gentle or even reasonably fast flooring of the accelerator will leave it in gear, although it does mean that even in manual you can get to 3rd in less than a second which would normally have taken 3 taps of the paddle.

I have no doubt that a manual driven right will be as fast or quicker, but you have to make perfect gear changes everytime. With the DSG you do make perfect gear changes. It is noticeable when accelerating with people beside you that you can pull a car length while they are changing gear.

I just love this system, come into a corner two taps on the paddle into 4th, power round the bend, tap into 5th, tap into 6th [:D].
i manual mode the box will only change down if you hit the kick down switch (this is the same on SMG). At the bottom of the throttle travel is a final small amount of travel, feels like a switch, you have to push failry hard to activate it. I never use it, in fact don't really like it. You can press than the accel down as fast as you like, it will only change if you push it hard and past the kick down switch. I know a few people with SMG's who had it disoneected as sometimes you press the accel hard for a over take and the box kept changing down when you don't want it to.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
440 Posts
i manual mode the box will only change down if you hit the kick down switch (this is the same on SMG). At the bottom of the throttle travel is a final small amount of travel, feels like a switch, you have to push failry hard to activate it. I never use it, in fact don't really like it. You can press than the accel down as fast as you like, it will only change if you push it hard and past the kick down switch. I know a few people with SMG's who had it disoneected as sometimes you press the accel hard for a over take and the box kept changing down when you don't want it to.
I thought that as well so I went out and tested it the other day,

Floored the accelerator in manual slowly all the way to the end stop, no change down, just stayed in 6th. Floored the accelerator really quickly and kickdown was activated.

I think it works on speed of application rather than a kickdown point.

Will try it again today, any excuse to go for a drive [:)]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
i manual mode the box will only change down if you hit the kick down switch (this is the same on SMG). At the bottom of the throttle travel is a final small amount of travel, feels like a switch, you have to push failry hard to activate it. I never use it, in fact don't really like it. You can press than the accel down as fast as you like, it will only change if you push it hard and past the kick down switch. I know a few people with SMG's who had it disoneected as sometimes you press the accel hard for a over take and the box kept changing down when you don't want it to.
I thought that as well so I went out and tested it the other day,

Floored the accelerator in manual slowly all the way to the end stop, no change down, just stayed in 6th. Floored the accelerator really quickly and kickdown was activated.

I think it works on speed of application rather than a kickdown point.

Will try it again today, any excuse to go for a drive [:)]
There is defo a switch at the bottom of the pedal, you can feel it even with out the car running, push the pedal all the way down without too much force, when you hit what you think is the bottom, push a little harder and you should feel a extra bit of movement which feels like a switch. My car does not kick down without this being pressed, check you have this switch in place. You can even see it if you look behind the pedal
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
i manual mode the box will only change down if you hit the kick down switch (this is the same on SMG). At the bottom of the throttle travel is a final small amount of travel, feels like a switch, you have to push failry hard to activate it. I never use it, in fact don't really like it. You can press than the accel down as fast as you like, it will only change if you push it hard and past the kick down switch. I know a few people with SMG's who had it disoneected as sometimes you press the accel hard for a over take and the box kept changing down when you don't want it to.
I thought that as well so I went out and tested it the other day,

Floored the accelerator in manual slowly all the way to the end stop, no change down, just stayed in 6th. Floored the accelerator really quickly and kickdown was activated.

I think it works on speed of application rather than a kickdown point.

Will try it again today, any excuse to go for a drive [:)]
I have tried it today and no matter how fast i do it i won't change down, i also tried a friends GTTDI and another GTI and they are all the same, unless you press the switch the kick down will not happen. Thank god it doesn't do what yours is doing he kick down is a terrrible feature in a car like this, much nicer to flick the paddle a few times to pick your own gear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
440 Posts
I have tried it today and no matter how fast i do it i won't change down, i also tried a friends GTTDI and another GTI and they are all the same, unless you press the switch the kick down will not happen. Thank god it doesn't do what yours is doing he kick down is a terrrible feature in a car like this, much nicer to flick the paddle a few times to pick your own gear.
I tried mine again and yes I can feel the switch point you talk about.

But if i push the throttle to the floor past this switch point slowly or even relatively fast - no kick down which is what I want. (Gear stick in the +/- setting)

If I slam the pedal to the floor past the switch it immediatly kicks down from 6th to 3rd which is fine as it much faster than I could have hit the paddle three times.

Looks like there may be different version of code in the gearbox ECU about if yours is not operating the same. I'm happy with the way mine is working.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
440 Posts
TheDoc, I have to apologise, I have been talking through my **** [:$] [:$] [:$] [:$] [:$] [:$]

Went out again to today and tried again, you're right it doesn't matter how fast you hit the pedal as long as you don't go past the kick down switch it doesn't kick down.

When I hit the pedal fast I must have been going past this, and when going slower must have been stopping at the first stop

I was sure I was pressing the pedal to the floor but mustn't have been as that is not how it was working today.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
TheDoc, I have to apologise, I have been talking through my **** [:$] [:$] [:$] [:$] [:$] [:$]

Went out again to today and tried again, you're right it doesn't matter how fast you hit the pedal as long as you don't go past the kick down switch it doesn't kick down.

When I hit the pedal fast I must have been going past this, and when going slower must have been stopping at the first stop

I was sure I was pressing the pedal to the floor but mustn't have been as that is not how it was working today.
No worries, glad we are on the same page.. ;-)
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top