[rob.gti]

...wasn't over keen [!]

Dont get me wrong, the gearbox is an absolute peach for accelerating. It really does get the power down well and your through the gears and hitting naughty speeds with very little effort. But, and its quite a huge but, the computer wizardry that helpd do the chaging up so well, isnt so keen to do the changing down properly. Let me try and explain...

Manual Gear box: When appraoching roundabouts/junctions at a fairly healthy speed, it is normal to change down while braking thus allowing the engine to "brake" also. This removes forward motion very well and gives the driver confidence ready for the off if everything is clear.

DSG Gear box: Same senario as above, start braking and flick the lever to drop down a gear... the computer thinks - "okay I will keep the revs up ready for the driver to change back up", which means the engine continues to turn over at high speed, thus producing NO engine braking!! This feels very uncomfortable!

I suppose its something you could get used to, but now i have driven a car with DSG, I think i will stick with the Manual, its so much more fun.

One other thing that puts me off is that the DSG on the GTI is a ?1300 option, and that doesnt come with "paddle" shifts on the steering wheel. If you want that its another ?515 on top! making DSG and Paddle shift over ?1800 option [B)]

 

[ChrisB]

Autocar tested the DSG GTi this week and the conclusion was they would take the manual. Said there were too many annoying characteristics of the DSG taking control away from the driver such as auto change up on rev limiter and auto change down if computer thinks revs are too low. Also the system is supposed to lurch in town driving. Some impressive points though such as the throttle blip when downshifting.

 

[NikB]

To be honest you shouldn't change down gears and use the engine as a brake anyway. (Ducks and waits for torrents of abuse) In the long term it increases engine wear and isn't really necessary. Personally I brake and will soon dip the clutch (also bad I know) and directly s elect the right gear for accelating away. This also reduces the total number of gear changes needed. I can't see a system like DSG being able to do that better than a person.

 

[TheDoc]

I drove dsg on a desiel, and was V impressed, i have had a bmw with the smg gearbox and this is in a different league. I didn't go for the paddles, on the smg box i only really used the stick not paddles, also like you said i am not really happy about paying ?1800 for the dsg, seems a bit rich that they do not provide the paddles as standard for the ?1300. Semi-auto geaboxes are something you have to get used to, i hated the smg for the first few weeks and questioned my decision to buy it, however after a while i became to think it was the best thing ever and that manuals felt very stone-age. Horses for courses as they say, semi-gearboxes seem to be the way things are heading, new M5, Enzo, Bugati Veynon all have semi gearboxes only.

 

[kenl]

Quote: posted by NikB on 19/01/2005 09:25:40

To be honest you shouldn't change down gears and use the engine as a brake anyway.

I know what you are saying and believe that this is the way learners are taught now. i.e. coast to a stop and use the brakes.

If however you are driving quickly and braking late it makes sense to me to get some help from your engine to slow you up.

 

[Foxy]

My ?0.02 ;

Point 1 - Diesels are less effective at using engine for braking anyway (but it does work to a degree)

Point 2 - Engines "wear" when you use them - it's a fact - and most tdi's will still be running very nicely way way after you've sold it on

Point 3 - Before electronic automatic gearboxes were popular or available in the mainstream, most people would have happily paid ?1800 for a paddle-shift system of this type.

Point 4 - If you have already s elected a multi-function FIS for your car, I think the cost of the can-bus module which handles the paddle controllers should already be the right one......hence it should be a little less for the paddle add-on.

Point 5 - If you're considering chipping a TDi, the DSG has a torque limit which may cause problems

I like the idea of DSG but i'm not sure i could live with it.

 

[RichieDan]

Just watch top gear, I think there has only been one car with flappy paddle gear box that has worked, the DB9.

 

[kenl]

Quote: posted by RichieDan on 19/01/2005 11:47:13

Just watch top gear, I think there has only been one car with flappy paddle gear box that has worked, the DB9.

You don't believe what those tw*ts say though do you? []

The DSG in the TT was well received by all the car mags that I read.

 

[RichieDan]

Quote: posted by kenl on 19/01/2005 11:50:17

Quote: posted by RichieDan on 19/01/2005 11:47:13

Just watch top gear, I think there has only been one car with flappy paddle gear box that has worked, the DB9.

You don't believe what those tw*ts say though do you? []

The DSG in the TT was well received by all the car mags that I read.

LOL, Not entirely, alhtough I do totally agree with them that caravans should be used as conkers or darts!

 

[hornetrider]

Quote: posted by NikB on 19/01/2005 09:25:40

To be honest you shouldn't change down gears and use the engine as a brake anyway. (Ducks and waits for torrents of abuse) In the long term it increases engine wear and isn't really necessary. Personally I brake and will soon dip the clutch (also bad I know) and directly s elect the right gear for accelating away. This also reduces the total number of gear changes needed. I can't see a system like DSG being able to do that better than a person.

Got to say I disagree with the first part of that quote mate.

When you're driving at or near the limit then engine braking is an important part of the dynamics of slowing down the car and setting it up for the corner. OK so there is the wear argument but then to be slowing down at the same rate you will be putting a whole lot extra strain on the braking system (admittedly easier to replace). Plus, if you're using wear and tear as an argument, how does nitrous fit into that equation?! []

I agree though that DSG or any semi-auto system will always take some element of control away from the driver and is therefore not really desirable from my point of view.

 

[ZMan]

SORRY I BELIEVE YOU ARE WRONG.

If you really want to drive fast then you should not use the engine for breaking. Apart from the engine strain and wear issue you are throwing the car out of balance which is the last thing you want before you enter a corner.The correct technique is to brake as hard as you can in a straight line (letting the ABS cut in if necessary). Whilst doing this change down at the appropriate time, accelerate the engine using your heel so that when you lift the clutch the engine and gearbox are matched (hence no engine braking). If you get it right the whole process will be very smooth (and sound good) and the car will be well balanced as you then balance the throttle to the apex of the corner before accelerating out.

Having mastered the technique over many years racing the last thing I want is to go to DSG - somehow it seems less involving.

ZMan

 

[hornetrider]

No need to shout mate, we're all friends here []

I agree with you on heel and toe, I should have qualified by saying I was referring to fast road driving rather than on the absolute limit on the track. I'd rather have both my hands on the wheel and be in the right gear for turn in for driving in road conditions. ie, power power power then braking hard from 4th, 3rd, 2nd, drop from about 5k in 2nd to around 3.5k, turn in, then power around corner as appropriate. Thats how I do it anyway and it works for me []

 

[Oversized Al]

I would also agree that using engine braking is totally unneccessary in a modern car.

If you go through an advanced driving course you would be taught "brakes to slow, gears to go" - in other words, srub off the speed using the brakes then s elect an appropriate gear. This may mean going from 5th gear to 2nd gear, saving all that gear stick twiddling[]

 

[TheDoc]

seems we are getting into a lesson about driving now, i think we can all agree for those who like semi-gearboxes DSG is a good option, if not the best, for those who don't, 'stick'(forgive the pun) to the manual.

 

[sammyboy]

There is talk that the DSG gearbox is costing VW a lot of money in warranty claims right now.

It's relatively new product and I'd question it's longterm viability in light of these reports. Of course if you plan to offload your vehicle after warranty runout and don't mind the odd courtesy car it's probably not much of a problem.

When I buy a MKV GTI after the price premium decreases in a couple of years it will be a manual.

 

[Reflex TDI]

Quote: posted by RichieDan on 19/01/2005 11:47:13

Just watch top gear, I think there has only been one car with flappy paddle gear box that has worked, the DB9.

A customer of mine took me out in his DB9 last week and put it through its paces. Needless to say I was very impressed.[]

The next morning he phoned me - the gearbox was kaput and it was back at the dealership. So Aston are still having problems.

 

[NikB]

When you're driving at or near the limit then engine braking is an important part of the dynamics of slowing down the car and setting it up for the corner. OK so there is the wear argument but then to be slowing down at the same rate you will be putting a whole lot extra strain on the braking system (admittedly easier to replace). Plus, if you're using wear and tear as an argument, how does nitrous fit into that equation?!

Actually if you look on the wizards of nos forums they reckon it reduces engine wear. I think that will depend on how well you burn the nos. If you have more nos than fuel then the unburnt nos will actually cool the engine.

 

[cjp2k]

Ok so lets get some1 to put Nitros on a MK V see what happens?? []

 

[Foxy]

My further ?0.02......

1) If folks want to use engine braking then please let them be....cripes!

2) The DSG in the earlier TT 3.2 (as per my business partner's car) is having major bothers....this affects a large number of TTs.....

3) Vintage cars - most have manual "ignition timing" adjustment........for decades it's been automatically adjusted for optimal running.....aren't auto boxes just a evolution of manual boxes?

4) How many F1 cars run manual gearboxes?

5) How many trucks run manual gearboxes?

6) I agree the part of the driving fun is to feel 'involved', but if you aint tried a DSG yet, how can you slate it?

 

[hornetrider]

Just got another point to make about the whole engine braking thing then I'll shut up. [] For me I get a better feel for what gear I need to be in by going down through the gears. As the speed bleeds off you get a feel for which gear you are in and which gear is appropriate for the corner you are approaching.

Whereas if you're in 5th say and just using the brakes approaching a corner, you then really need to think about what gear is appropriate for your speed in order to maximise acceleration through the corner, rather than just "feeling" it as you decelerate through the gears. In this case, you could either end up picking the wrong gear, or taking your eye off the road to evaluate your speed before s electing the appropriate gear...

/.02