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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Have just bought Bilstein B4's for my Anniversary and am in the process of buying Eibach ProKit Springs, but have since learned that the Anni came with -30mm springs by Eibach as standard.

Am i wasting my cash buying springs? Could I/should I just use the standard springs supplied or is it sill a worth while upgrade?

Any help or information appreciated.
 

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The Anni suspension is one of the best to come as factory-fit on the MkIV and they would probably be a good match for the B4s, I personally wouldn't touch them unless they're broke. Springs from manufacturers like Eibach are high quality, very resilient and often come with a lifetime warranty if bought as aftermarket items.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks shiuming. B4's bought already but can anyone confirm my Anni has Eibach -30mm already as standard?

If so,are these just the same as Eibach ProKit Springs?
 

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I bought an Anni and already had amassed all the suspension upgrades including Eibach Pro Kit -30mm

Here's some pics of the car on this thread earlier today. - http://www.uk-mkivs.net/forums/440537/ShowPost.aspx

I don't think it looks any lower, and the OEM springs are made by Eibach anyway. Maybe I wasted my money - who knows? With everything else I've spent on the car thankfully this was one of the smaller purchases. [:S]
 

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Personally I wouldn't get hung up on numbers, you're not going to notice an extra 5mm here or there. I've got Anni springs and dampers on mine (still going well after 25k James!) and they're vastly better than a std GT TDi. Having said that I've also been in the Reflex mobile and the aftermarket Eibach springs do feel slightly firmer, but that's also because they're combined with some excellent Koni dampers and the ride/body control with that component combination is as close to spot on as I'd want it.

The Anni suspension is one of the best to come as factory-fit on the MkIV and they would probably be a good match for the B4s, I personally wouldn't touch them unless they're broke. Springs from manufacturers like Eibach are high quality, very resilient and often come with a lifetime warranty if bought as aftermarket items.
I agree here - If you want to really improve the handling then I'd get some Konis and put the aftermarket Eibachs with them. If however you simply want to firm up the standard ride a little then change the dampers to the B4s you've already got and leave the OEM Eibach springs alone(yes AFAIK the Anni springs are made by Eibach). If you want to lower it then I'd say don't as IMHO the std Anni ride height is just about spot on for looks.
Please remember that it's the dampers that make the biggest single difference to your suspension and the B4s will probably be very similar, maybe a little firmer than the std Anni shocks, so you'll notice an improvement there. As shiuming said - personally I think it's the best 'OEM' setup you could have on a 2wd Golf.

This is mine with the Anni springs on, I don't think Eibachs would make any/much difference to the ride height.

Posted Image
 

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Five dollars

I've seen the way you drive and maybe you should change the whole set up to suit your driving, it may let you go around the round abouts little quicker if thats what your looking for but a remap is what you want if you to keep up with the rest of the pack, if you do go for the change I may take your old springs and dampers for my 4x4 Gti
Yes [Y]


cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for the reply Richard.Would still like to see it a bit lower. Not sure what to do for the best now.

...And since iv'e seen your driving also Tur80, if i give you my springs & dampers, maybe you'll save enough to get an auto box for your Gti, since you never seem to use your stick anyway !
Stick out tongue [:P]
 

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Here's a thread from Vortex http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=621342 it runs to 19 pages over a few years and as a summary the conclusions most people reached is:

If you want to lower it for looks that's fine, but the handling will get worse (it will probably be masked by some stiff springs and dampers so it may feel better)

If you want the optimum handling then the Anni ride height is spot on (known as the 337 is the US). The Eibach springs as as been mentioned will sit at about that height but I believe the rate is firmer (which is a good thing from a handling perspective).

The key to all this is the relationship between the CoG and the Roll Centre. If you lower the car so the wishbones are at an angle to the ground - sloping down (looks like this from the front \ / but not as extreme an angle ) to the centre of the car then your roll centre will actually be below ground and that simply means that the car will actually roll more in the corners than one that sits slightly higher. The reason that people think their car handles better 'slammed' is that actually in a corner the car is sitting on it's bump stops and can't roll - hence that 'go-kart' feeling. The reality of that is they confuse grip with handling and because they've got big wheels with wide tyres that's what's stopping them from ending up in a ditch.

I hope this helps your understanding of things and it sounds like you've made a good choice with the Eibachs. (Sorry if it appears that I'm teaching you to suck eggs!)
 

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Hi,

If you really want to make the handling and traction better, keep your car at the standard height and fit a rear anti-rollbar. The difference is huge! I find the Whiteline adjustable rear bar the best value for money, but there are plenty of other choices.

Cheers,

Job
 

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Here's a thread from Vortex http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=621342 it runs to 19 pages over a few years and as a summary the conclusions most people reached is:

If you want to lower it for looks that's fine, but the handling will get worse (it will probably be masked by some stiff springs and dampers so it may feel better)

If you want the optimum handling then the Anni ride height is spot on (known as the 337 is the US). The Eibach springs as as been mentioned will sit at about that height but I believe the rate is firmer (which is a good thing from a handling perspective).

The key to all this is the relationship between the CoG and the Roll Centre. If you lower the car so the wishbones are at an angle to the ground - sloping down (looks like this from the front \ / but not as extreme an angle ) to the centre of the car then your roll centre will actually be below ground and that simply means that the car will actually roll more in the corners than one that sits slightly higher. The reason that people think their car handles better 'slammed' is that actually in a corner the car is sitting on it's bump stops and can't roll - hence that 'go-kart' feeling. The reality of that is they confuse grip with handling and because they've got big wheels with wide tyres that's what's stopping them from ending up in a ditch.

I hope this helps your understanding of things and it sounds like you've made a good choice with the Eibachs. (Sorry if it appears that I'm teaching you to suck eggs!)
Interesting points.....so uprating the standard shocks/dampers/springs would be a waste of money?

In another 20k or so miles i'll probably need to change my OEM shocks.....would you advise against Koni's and stick with the OEM stuff.

Would be interesting to see how the stock Anni setup handles with just the addition of an Eibach rear ARB. That could be all that's required to sort it [:)]
 

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Interesting points.....so uprating the standard shocks/dampers/springs would be a waste of money? No definitely not, uprating is a very good way of improving handling, if you have a look at the thread the kit they all rave about is known as a 'shine kit' basically highly uprated springs with Bilstein shocks and a rear ARB (but different to what you've seen before). I think it's www.srsvw.com

In another 20k or so miles i'll probably need to change my OEM shocks.....would you advise against Koni's and stick with the OEM stuff. No - with the right budget I'd probably do what Reflex has done, stick some good springs on (Eibach or similar) without lowering it too far (look at the pics - his is probably very close to a std Anni ride height) with some decent bushes and good shocks - once again Koni/Bilstein etc.

Would be interesting to see how the stock Anni setup handles with just the addition of an Eibach rear ARB. That could be all that's required to sort it [:)] If you can afford to do it in stages I'd change the shocks and bushes first to something like Koni adjustables, if the springs then feel too soft then add some Eibachs. James will probably be able to help with spec for an Anni, I've been in his and I doubt that you'd get a better everyday set-up which can also hold it's own on a track than his.
It took me a few days to work through the thread and if you can read between the US BS and banter you'll find some very useful explanations and links. In the middle of it somewhere is a story from a chap who spent a fortune on a coilover kit and slammed it. Wanted to spend loads of money on springs and re-valving the shocks to get the ride and handling right, when it was suggested he actually raised the ride height back to somewhere close to standard - the car was transformed and he didn't have to spend any money!

I suppose the point I'm trying to make (but not very well!) is that to lower the MkIV too much is detrimental to the handling. I think those who have done it and feel that it's better are misinterpreting the signals that the car is giving them. Upgrading the suspension components is definitely a good thing - it will give much better feel, grip and handling although with high springs rates the ride will suffer. A good set of coil-overs set at the right ride height and corner weighted would add a further improvement, but we're talking PSS9s or Leda type stuff here so not cheap.

I see loads of threads about folk wanting to lower their cars a specific amount e.g. 45mm - I say stuff the numbers, fit something that really improves the handling (anything much lower than an Anni WILL screw the roll centre) and if it looks better at the same time then great - but then I'm not one for cosmetics or shows. I do have experience with mine on closed roads - ask the scooby driver on the handling loop at Longcross Test Track.......[;)] yes a 115 TDi with mainly std components can be made to handle quite well which enables me to embarass cars which theoretically should be much faster (usually with drivers who don't understand their own vehicles).
 

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Great reply Richard [Y]

My approach to suspension mods has been formed from information I have learned over the years from Kevin Bird, the Hartge (BMW) and Carlsson (Merc) tuning importer/guru. I know him through business and he has become a friend. I admire the fast road cars he builds for customers and one day, I will have one [;)]

Years ago he wrote an article for a BMW magazine which cuts through a lot of the BS. I think it is as relevant today as when it was written. It's reproduced on his website here as "Zen and the Art of Ride and Handling" [:)];

http://www.birdsauto.com/2-Editorial/title.htm

One last thing - 'cause I said a lot of the same stuff on an almost identical thread earlier this week - if I was buying Koni's again I would definitely have the new FSD design. From what I have read they perfectly suit the criteria Richard and I are talking about achieving. Any sort of Koni provides a different level of damping to the OEM ones, even Anni's.
 

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Good posts.

I see to many Golfs around here that are scraping their belly across the road and try to understeer off the road :)

In agree that the Konis suit the Golf very well, providing the rebound is not turned sky high.

I do find that most German/Dutch spring kits use a rear spring rate that is slightly too low. The main rate can comein earlier as well as being slightly harder without affecting the compliance too much.

I find that the Golf also likes more castor to combat understeer and provide better traction. An excentric bush kit for the lower wishbone and/or castor adjustable top mounts seem to make a big difference.

Increasing the rear roll stiffness. There are various ways of doing this. Adding an anti roll bar (I prefer this because of the adjustability) or adding a stress bar in the axle to change the beam's characteristics (relatively cheap but can be a make the torsional curve a bit strange and give snappy handling) or the cheapest way of welding extra metal corners in the rear axle. I haven't tried this on the Mk4, but we used this on the Mk1 and Mk2 race cars a long time ago and was very effective.

I have reduced the rear suspension droop as well on my car to aid oversteer predictability.

Good quality tyres are a must to make use of the mechanical grip the suspension provides.

A decent rideheight to make the suspension design do what it is supposed to do.

Compliance to allow the suspension to work.

Sorry for the ramblings, but I can't help myself. Still too much of an anorak even after 20 odd years of working with chassis.

Cheers
 

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Naaa - it's the sensible ride height run rings round the slammed ones forum.......[;)] you won't catch me in a pair of slippers!!
 

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Maybe we should start discussing whether the BHS slippers corner better than the M&S ones. Now where did I lay my pipe down? Heh heh, senility seems to come at the same time.........................................
 

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Me too! living in london with the crappy roads i am gonna sell my coilovers and get an Anni setup!

I can confrim Anni's have 20mm front and 15mm rear eibachs as standard!
 

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That is why I went with the Oettinger setup on mine. I tried Koni coilovers (at a reasonable ride high I will add, just slightly lower than the 30mm drop Eibachs that the Oettinger kit comes with) and found that they weren't compliant enough, fine on a nice smooth Motorway but round town with junctions that have been dug up God knows how many times - too crashy.

Having added the Eibach ARBs and Powerflex bushes I now enjoy the car again. I think my top mounts are worn now though, so I have a new set to go on with my S3 upper brace. The other thing I find is that the PowerFlex bushes can be a bit creaky when cold, I just turn the stereo up though.

Had a few problems with the front Eibach ARB bushes until we twigged that the ARB brackets changed in 99 and mine didn't have the locating ridge that the Eibach bushes require.

I suspect that I will require new shocks in about 20K so will have to decide between Eibach or Koni at that point.

Paul
 
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